I could start anywhere with this, but this is the passage I was reading today... so I'll use this one:  Isaiah 59

"(2) But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you... (9) So justice is far from us, and righteousness does not reach us...(12) For our offenses are many in Your sight, and our sins testify against us.  Our offenses are EVER with us, and we acknowledge our iniquities: (13) rebellion and treachery against the LORD, turning our backs on our God..."

Not one of us is holy.  Not one of us will ever be holy.  This phrase, "You SHALL be holy, for I am holy" means one thing, and one thing only, we SHALL be holy when we "fix our hope COMPLETELY on the grace" of God.  It is a promise, not a command.  God promises to see us as holy only if we are covered by his grace, it is up to us to FIX ourselves in that grace.

Look at Isaiah 59,

"(15) ...The LORD looked and was displeased that there was no justice. (16) HE saw that there was no one, HE was appalled that there was no one to intervene; SO His own arm worked salvation..."

God knows that none of us can do it, none of us is holy and none of us will be holy despite our best efforts.

IF WE COULD DO IT ON OUR OWN, EVEN ONE DAY, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR GOD TO EVER HAVE TAKEN ON THE FORM OF A HUMAN.

As to the conducting in fear phrase, how about this... if you know that every sin DIRECTLY hurts your loving and merciful God/lover/savior/friend/father/king, then you had DAMN straight better conduct yourself in a way that shows you fear sinning.

So, am I holy in all my behavior, no.  But does God see me as holy, yes.  He sees His own blood covering me and he knows that with the precious blood on me, I am REDEEMED from my unholiness, and am thereby holy.

-ryke-

@rykejosephsen - 

I disagree that we cannot be holy. God commanded it (multiple times in the Scriptures); it would not make sense for Him to command something we were not ABLE to do. Certainly it can be difficult to walk uprightly, but with the grace of God (NOT on our own, with the Holy Spirit and faith and grace) we CAN live without sin. But I think a lot if it comes down to what one believes 'sin' is...

You said: "As to the conducting in fear phrase, how about this... if you know that every sin DIRECTLY hurts your loving and merciful God/lover/savior/friend/father/king, then you had DAMN straight better conduct yourself in a way that shows you fear sinning."

Despite your needless cursing, I do agree with this. We need to realize just how offensive sin is to our Lord.

I think God will 'see me as holy' when I am holy. He is not blind or partial. He sees us for who we truly are. What does being redeemed from sin mean? It should mean that we are literally redeemed, saved, from SIN, not just from the consequences of it.

Romans 7:7 thru 8:17 explains why I disagree with you.

Paul explains how even though his spirit desires to be holy and is made holy by God's blood, his sinful nature continues to sin.

I'm not sure where to begin with this statement: "it would not make sense for Him to command something we were not ABLE to do."  He has to command things we are not able to do so that we are forced to rely on Him.

The above passage also gives a good definition to what sin is, sin is the things in the Law of God that we can't obey.  Without the Law, we wouldn't know what sin was.  Sin is our INEVITABLE shortcomings.

Understanding the offensiveness of our sins helps us to share in the sufferings of Christ so that we can also share in His glory.

God is definatley not blind or partial. "For the wages of sin is DEATH." (Romans 6:23a)  No matter what sin, how many, where, or when you will most certainly face the consequences of that/those sin(s): DEATH.  "BUT the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23b) So even though he's not blind or partial, he certainly does see me for who I am: HIS child... imperfect, but still His child through Jesus.

And I do think that there will be no more sin once redemption takes place, but redemption is still only the hope we hold on to at this point, the realization of that redemption is yet to come... Look at Romans 8: 22-27

"we wait eagerly..." "For in this HOPE we were saved..." "we wait for it patiently."

You see, we are NOT yet able to be perfect, BUT "the Spirit helps us IN our weakness."

If you really believe that God can't see you as holy until you are holy then you have missed the point of Jesus.

Jesus came to save the LOST!  Not those people who could get their shit together without Him.

-ryke-

@rykejosephsen - 

Brian, don't forget that Romans 6, 7, and 8 are not divided by chapters by Paul. In other words, you can't read Romans 7 without including Paul's thoughts in chapter 6. And the type of Christian life described in 6 and 8 are in direct contradiction to what you are suggesting Paul describes in chapter 7.

Paul is not contradicting himself. At about 7:13, Paul shifts into a different mode of speech, using a present tense and "depicts the conflict between conscience and conduct, between aspirations and inclinations" as to how he had knowledge of the law before his conversion, yet found no freedom from sin BY the law.

Here are some of his words from Romans 6: (Read it all again, but these really stand out)

2 How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

6 our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12-13 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin {as} instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members {as} instruments of righteousness to God.

14 sin shall not be master over you

17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness

22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

A person MUST read Romans 7 in light of Romans 6. These things strongly suggest that we are enabled by God to live obedient and holy lives, if we have died to self and now live for Christ.

*****

You said:

"sin is the things in the Law of God that we can't obey. Without the Law, we wouldn't know what sin was. Sin is our INEVITABLE shortcomings."

The Bible gives a definition of sin:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

Sin is transgression of the law. It is a choice. And the Bible NEVER speaks as though sin is inevitable for the believer. All have sinnED. Past tense. No where does the Bible say that a true believer will sin or cannot help but sin.

Here are a few more verses from 1st John 3 that teach holiness in this life:

3:3 And everyone who has this hope {fixed} on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

3:7 make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God,

3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

*****

You also said:

"IF WE COULD DO IT ON OUR OWN, EVEN ONE DAY, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR GOD TO EVER HAVE TAKEN ON THE FORM OF A HUMAN."

This cannot be true. If a person were to stop sinning from this day until they physically die, they will still need the atoning blood of Christ so that they can be forgiven of all their sins prior to that point in time of becoming holy.

Christ's Atonement does not wash away all future sins (or sin currently being chosen). The Atonement makes it possible for Father God to rightly "passover" our former sins when we are presently putting our faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ and are fully submitted to Him with an obedient heart. God will not let moral rebels into heaven, even if they prayed a sinner's prayer at one point in their life before returning to rebellion against God.

*****

The "weakness" spoken of in 8:22-27 is the weakness of not knowing what to pray. The "hope" spoken of is that of the restoration of creation for nature (from its current fallen state) and final salvation through the resurrection of the body for the Christian. Here Paul is not talking about being freed from sin after physical death.

*****

You said:

"You see, we are NOT yet able to be perfect,"

But Jesus says:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

*****

You said:

"God is definatley not blind or partial...you will most certainly face the consequences of that/those sin(s): DEATH."

Even cats and dogs die, and they have never sinned. Newborn babies die every day and they have never sinned. The consequence of sin is not only physical death. It is spiritual death, and spiritual death is experienced in an eternal state.

Truly, God is not blind or partial, and we will all give an account for every idle word spoken in this life on judgement day. Sobering thoughts for us all, no doubt.

@joeldad

joel,

i don't have time to break down everything you said and agree and disagree with the various parts of it, but let me say this:

i didn't break the bible into chapters, i simply pointed to a section i thought was relevant and gave the chapter so that it could be found and referenced to. i read the bible in light of the bible. aka, i don't read chapter 6 of romans without chapter 7, and i don't read romans without thinking about what genesis says. 

the bible as a whole points out that we need God because we sin.

God is not something that we use once then throw away... ie, yea!!! i'm free from sin!!! yippee! i'll go be perfect on my own now.

let me know when you find one person, just one that is perfect.  then i'll believe you. until then, i'm sticking with what the bible teaches.  that all sin.  the use of the past tense in the word sin in Romans 3:23 that you pointed out isn't in past tense in half the languages i can read it in.  the point of the verse is not the tense of the verb but the fact that everyone of us is totally screwed without God's grace.  his grace is an ongoing thing, not a one time event.

a person who could live from today till they died without sinning would not need Jesus' sacrifice, they could simply follow the law perfectly, having sacrificed an animal exactly as it says to do in the law.

check out hebrews 11, it is the faith (that God could and would save them from their sins) of the people who lived before the blood of God was shed that was credited to them as righeousness, not any perfection of their own that made them righteous.

if God's not going to let anyone into His presence that is morally corrupt after praying for forgiveness then we're all screwed unless we pray the prayer and die simultaneously.

matthew 5:48 is the intro to chapter 6 where Jesus explains that perfection is not a human ability but in fact only acheivable by God.  he goes on and teaches not to pretend to be righteous but to do your good deeds in secret so that you get God's reward.  he even teaches us how to pray, (notice the quotidian reference of this prayer... it should be prayed regularly) he says to pray for the forgiveness of the daily sins committed and that have been committed against you too.  why would Jesus teach us to ask for forgiveness of sins daily if it were over and done with once we came under His attonement?

and if you think i was taking the death talked about in Romans 6 to mean physical death then you misjudge my understanding of the bible.  i've been digesting God's written word for 20 years almost continuously at various levels of understanding, but i think i've caught on to the concept of eternal damnation by now.

if your interpretation of the bible is the truth, then yes, it would be very sobering... it would mean that i'm damned no matter what i do because i'm going to sin everyday the rest of my life. and i would not be able to possibly make it into heaven. i'll never be good enough.

try reading a book called "how good is good enough" by Andy Stanley if this subject is interesting to you.

i'm not perfect and i never will be so i'm going to rely on God's grace.

good luck on your quest for perfection. i hope you don't get too disappointed if it doesn't work out though.

-ryke-

@rykejosephsen - 

Bri,

You said: the bible as a whole points out that we need God because we sin. God is not something that we use once then throw away... ie, yea!!! i'm free from sin!!! yippee! i'll go be perfect on my own now.

I don't think you read my post with clear understanding. I'm NOT saying you achieve holiness on your own or that you don't rely on God's grace. It is only THROUGH His Grace and the saving work on the cross that saved us FROM sin. We continue daily, hourly to rely on the help of the Holy Spirit to sanctify us! But we must cooperate with Him in that. We must obey Him to the degree of light that we have.

Are you sinning right this minute? No (hopefully).Can you ever choose to resist temptation? Well, yes! And if so, then just keep not sinning and keep resisting temptation, in the strength of Jesus. If you do sin (the epistles, by the way, says over and over IF you sin, not WHEN you sin), we have an Advocate who will forgive us if we repent of our sin.

By the way, we own the book by Andy Stanley; Joel's folks gave it to us.