The Left Bank"The United States, for all its faults, is still the greatest nation in the country" - Spiro Agnew
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Original: 12/13/2005 11:09 PM
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Tuesday, December 13, 2005
 Today, Tookie Williams was shot up full of lethal drugs in order to kill him so that American Justice can be served. It did kill him. Now he's fucking dead. See you on the flip side Tookie. Keep it real. Yeah Arnold had him snuffed. And a lot of fucking good it's done too. So very productive, the death penalty. Such an efficient expenditure of energy and money. Such a waste of human life and potential. Honestly, what's the point? What good did it serve besides making a few people feel better, imagining their own dead loved ones can finally sleep in peace and allow a few smug, self-rightous smegheads to pat themselves on the back. I'm not even going to bother going into why I think the death penalty is wrong. Why I think the State should not have the authority to kill its own citizens. Why no human has the right to take another's life unless in self-defense or defense of another. Why human and societal imperfection considered, a trial by jury can never be expected to be 100% fail safe at the best of times. Not that I'm knocking trial by jury, on the contrary I think its a vital right too often waived in this decaying system. All I'm saying is even the best legal system can make a mistake. And just so you know there is some debate about whether ours is the best. But that's irrelevent. You can never give back a life if you make a mistake, once you've taken it. At least if you have a guy in prison for life and new DNA evidence comes up that aquits him, while you can't give him back his missing years, he at least has his remaining ones. If someday it's proved Tookie was innocent...well, all they will be able to say is "OOOPS!!!" But that...that isn't even the fucking point right now.
All I can really say and the first thought that hits me is:
What a waste.
This guy was doing some good with his life, goddamit. Trying to make amends as best he could for the mistakes he'd made. Frankly that's more than a lot of us, maybe most of us, do, let alone convicted murderers. You don't see Charles Manson talking to troubled teenagers. Timothy McVeigh didn't give a fuck. Whether he did the deed they say he did or not it's painfully obvious that Tookie Williams was trying to do his best to fix his own fucked up karma and pick up what he could of his own mess in the time he had left.
Today Arnold and the State of California snuffed out his life.
Yeah Arnold. It's a mystery how this guy is even in this posiiton. It's beyond ludicrous, and it's beyond the looking glass. Arnold in Wonderland. It blew my mind that Californians voted for what is essentially a cartoon character. I wasn't around when Reagan was making movies so i dont know if it felt the same way when he switched to politics. But Arnold will always just be a big dumb musclebound fool to me. I actually kinda liked him when he was just doing sometimes entertaining action movies. He seemed like he had a sense of humor. Could laugh at himself unlike Stalone or the rest of those goons. But it was probably all just a big P.R. prelude to this, the absolute absurd main act. Arnold the Guvenator. Yeah I could write a separate essay on that whole bizzaro phenemonon. I quickly decided I didnt like Arnold when I saw what he was like behind his onscreen persona. And this feeling was only reinforced when i learned more about him then I really ever wanted to in the run up to the california recall election. The last action hero was in fact nothing but a misogynist, groupie-groping hitler admirer! Then I saw what he did as govenor, a sharp turn to the hard right.  Not even really holding up the pretense of being the supposed moderate Republican (practically an oxymoron these days) he'd advertised himself as. But when it comes down to it, all one really sees when one looks at Arnold is a narcissistic bodybuilder who spent way too much time looking at himself in the mirror at a formative part of his life and has never quite been able to get over himself. This pathetic dipshit probably really does see himself as some sort of great man and not the punchline most of the rest of us have come to despise. I imagine that his self-conception is of a kind of American demagogue imported from the ashes of old German fascism and the father figure adoration of Freud's worst wetdreams. You could take Hitler seriously though. Charlie Chaplin moustache or no. Even Chaplin's own portrayal of the great dictator in its scathing satire has done nothing to lessen the sheer horrific majesty of Hitler's seemingly unadulterated evil as it exists now in the collective consciousness of our culture. How many people automatically and almost unthinkingly reach for Hitler as a source of analogy when seeking to convey unimpeacable evil?  Was any of this what Arnold had in mind when he said he admired Hitler for his "strength"? God only knows. But my point is that Hitler could be taken seriously almost to the point of embodying the concept of evil itself in the modern world. He's practically usurped Satan's own dark throne in his solidification of this role as the premere villain of the twentieth century, much as a cartoon Sadamn Hussein did in the South Park movie. But Arnold's not even three dimensional outside his movies. Still got the same damn one-liner quips while running for "govenator". For the last four years half of my brain has simply wished to deny that many of the events that did took place. "No Bush didnt win (read: steal) the elections". "No. No. No. That didnt happen. No. They didn't use that as excuse to invade Iraq. No, goddamn it, this shouldn't be so easy for them. Why is it unfolding like a fucking action movie script. Why??". But of course all these horrible things, they did happen. And now the perpetrators of demonic imagined destiny are writing history as fast as they can and re-writing it even faster.
But this whole Arnold shit.  Jesus. Why didn't he just literally run as the character "the Terminator" from the 2nd movie. Cos that's who people were fucking voting for. I goddamn guarantee it.
Anyway...I won't ever understand how you fuckwits in California who voted for him think...maybe you just dont...that would explain a lot of things actually. Well, the long and short of it is I'm actually toying with the idea of throwing away all my Arnold movies. At the very fucking least I hope that heartless fuck loses his re-election campaign. God, if ever there were a silver lining to come from this let it be that. Please Lord terminate this flop of a sequel before it gets produced.  So what do you think? Should I get rid of The Terminator, The Terminator 2 and Total Recall? They're pretty decent movies. Maybe I won't throw them away. I understand how melodramatic that would be. Equally absurd wouldnt it be? Do I really want to give in to that rather lame impulse? Or is it the principle of the thing? And what principle is that? Maybe I should send them to him with a note that says  "from a former fan" like a friend suggested. I was never that much of fan though. The Terminators are good movies. and Total Recall. Maybe Last Action Hero. That's about it. Predator pretty much blows. And Conan the Barbarian might be the worst movie I've ever seen in my life, bar none. But even though the explanation of time travel is ludicrous and nonsensical and contradictory in those terminator movies (it was way more coherent in  the Back to the Future series) they are damn entertainting. I just bought "The Terminator" part one from a thrift store for a dollar and believe it or not I watched it for the first time a couple weeks ago. Yeah I may hate fucking fascist Arnold as a person. And in fact I do.  I may think he is just overall a bad person, frankly. And well, yes that's also true. But I believe we ought to be able to separate a person's art from the personality and actions of the artist. Just cos you don't like the artist or disagree with him on this or that or even your most cherished values, it doesn't mean the art automatically sucks too or that you should force yourself to stop enjoying it. Salvador Dali may have supported Franco and even been a bit of a fascist himself but that doesnt stop him from being my favorite painter. Axl Rose may be a fucking douche bag and always was but theres at least three or four rocking songs on the first Guns N' Roses album. Hmm maybe that's not the greatest example. Charles Manson may have been....but....look at your game girl...hmm..never mind. I think you get my point.
It really is a shame that we can't just send a Terminator back in time to prevent Arnie ever coming to power in the first place or maybe just melt him down after the terminator movies. I'm not advocating his death of course, just the death of his career and ability to cause the deaths of others as he's done today. What gets me is that this shmuck took a week to decide the life of the man. Making a great show of his wise deliberations. His careful considerations. His quiet determinations. And then? After rasing hope to an apropriately unrealstic level...he fucking kills him anyway. And the result of all this pondering? What did the "great man" conclude in the end. What was the basis for his decision? His explanation amounts to "Tookie didnt say he was sorry so I had to whack him". Here is a a closer paraphrase of what Arnold actually said:
"One thing he hasn't done is the one thing he needs to do, show remorse."
Yeah, except Tookie claims he's innocent. How the fuck are you supposed to apologize and show remorse for murders you say you didn't do? Huh? Huh? Answer that you musclebound ignoramous!!!!  Just assuming that it's at least possible that Tookie is indeed innocent of these crimes like he claimed, then this fucking kindergarten cop-out is asking an impossible burden of the man. What does he want him to do? Fucking lie and just say he did it even though he didnt???? Fucking hell! What is this? Theater? Should we have Bertolt Brecht write some melodramatic yet strangly moving music for it? Is this just a show? Yeah it is cos he's supposed to show remorse. Don't have to feel it. Just show it. One more time you fucking Austrian anthropoid ape-man, lets run through this puzzle once more time you meatheaded moron and see if you can piece it together. Here it is again:
So, just hypothetically for the sake of argument just saying he was innocent, should he have apologized for the murders anyway and shown remorse even though he didn't do them? That's absurd. That's a Tom Stoppard play!!! No, it's Samuel Becket!!!!!!!!You made us wait for Godot for a week Arnold. Why make absurd theater of this whole thing? Admit it fucker! You were always gonna kill him and you were never gonna spare him.

Now, you might think perhaps I'm being too harsh on this Hitlerphiliac hulk who fancies himself worthy to dish out death to the deserving. I admit I've sometimes been guilty of this vice in the past. So let me attempt to adopt a more reasonable, a more fair and balanced, a less emotional, a less cynical attitude. Let us attempt to crawl inside the mind (such as it is) of the Blonde Beast himself. Just what was Arnold thinking. What was his thought process.
Perhaps it went something like this: Perhaps Arnold just thought "well the facts show the Big Black Man did it and the facts can't be wrong so if he says otherwise he's lying and he's unrepentent, and so it is right that he should die".  Maybe you are pursuaded by the line of reasoning that goes "he can't be pardoned for what he won't admit to". Maybe that is a convincing and rational argument worthy indeed of our consideration. Yeah maybe. Maybe Twins was a good movie. In some alternate universe. Maybe in some weird bizzaro Arnold world, a movie that revolves around a pregnant male body builder sounded like a good premise for a plot, was a critical smash and a blockbuster success...maybe or maybe it just sounded like a good idea at the time. Maybe. And Maybe I'm running out of lame Arnold references and should just get to the point already. Well all this may very well be true.
But the thing is...everyone who follows this line of reasoing is presupposing Tookie's guilt. And the facts of the case just aren't that clear. Are they ever really crystcal clear when human life is at stake? When race is a factor? When...yes, yes but in this case it really is a little murky. So think about this:
From what I've read two of the star witnesses for the prosecution were convicted felons who were promised benefits in exchange for testifying which one would think might compromise their testimony just a little. Sure, sure, sure. I know. That's how it always goes. That's how the system works. No big deal. No big aberration. Just business as usual. Yeah???? And ??? AND??? The point isn't whether this shit happens or even whether it happens a lot. The point is if and when it happens, is it right and doesn't it comprimise the furtherance of justice? And do I have to even ask this last question? Do we care about justice? Do we care about truth or do we just care about guilty verdicts and finding scapegoats? I'm not saying he's innocent. Who really is these days afterall? Throw a rock. Tookie was very fucking far from being a saint. The guy founded the Crips. Hardly a spotless little lamb. Sacrificial goat maybe. But not a blameless lamb. Okay. But he wasn't convicted for starting a street gang and whatever shit he presumably did that he didn't get cought for. And, at least in theory, he wasn't killed by lethal injection because he started the Crips. He was convicted for specific murders. That and that alone is what comes into play here in a consideration of his guilt. The other shit is neither here nor there. But on a side note, if remorse and redemption is what Arnold got his panties in a bunch about, don't you think devoting the last 20 years of your  life to try to undo some of the ill you've done, writing children's books against gangs, warning kids agaisnt gangs. Arranging a truce between the Bloods and the Crips?  From what I understand this guy had credibility with gangs. Maybe the cynical  LA cops who like to run their mouths to the papers about this case are right. Maybe today's Crips, Snoop Dogg aside, don't know who Tookie was and don't give a fuck. Yeah lots of maybes. Well, so what? The real point is the guy was obviously trying to make a difference and make amends as best he could for what he did do. And the murders? Well he's always maintained he didn't do those. Maybe he's just lying. Maybe he's just a lying rat-bastard murderer who deserved to die. Look, I'm not even suggesting that he wasn't. I'm not even saying he was innocent of those murders. That's not what I'm saying. Cos I don't know. I don't know who knows. I don't know the truth. All I'm saying is that it's at least possible that he didn't do it. All I'm suggesting is that this was not a clear cut case. That's all. But with that comes the inescapable conclusion that there was a window of possibility that the govenor was about to kill a wrongly convicted man. And this isn't that far-fetched.  This shit does happen. Far too often. Maybe it didnt happen here. Maybe they got their man. But It could have. That's all. That's all I'm saying. And I guess the fact that it was an all white jury is irrelevent too. I would never dare to suggest that this country might be just a little prejudiced. Oh no. Like John Howard, Prime Minister of Australia said, "we are not a racist country". Of course we arn't. Countires can't be racist. A Nation state is an abstract concept that cannot have attidudes or attributes such as "racist". It is a void that we project our own attidutes and attributes onto. A canvass we spurt our Jackson Pollack jism on to create the final masterpiece we lovingly call our own and pretend it has always existed and always had to look this way. Well doesn't it always look that way after the fact? But the actual attitudes come from individuals. Still, the thing is, some of those individuals, do have predujdices. And a white person is simply more likely to be prejudiced against a black man than a black person is against another black person. For whatever reason. And well, there's something to be said for the concept of the jury of one's peers. Was the all white jury, made up of Tookie's peers? I don't mean that in a moralistic sense but in an experiential sense and in terms of  class, and of course, in terms of race. Could any of those jururs really empathize for a minute with the kind of life a black man who started a violent gang has led, and the circumstances that led to his actions? I don't know. You decide. Make up your own mind on this and all things.  I don't know the answers to these questions. I think they're worth asking though.  But in the end...it doesn't bring anyone back to life. Not the original murder victims that Tookie may or may not have killed. And certainly not Tookie. I predict that much of Holywood will arbitrarily deify him of course, even more than when he was alive, as they ignore other individual death penalty cases and the death penalty as an issue in and of itself. The insidious idea will be pushed forth that while Tookie should have been spared, special saintlike Tookie, Joe Blow on Death Row deserves what he gets. And it will keep on like that as long as we feel the need to make human sacrficies to some imagined Gods of Eye-for-Eye Justice in this blind, blind world.  And it stay that way until America finally decideds to join the civilzed world and outlaw the death penalty altogether. But until that day. Life goes on, for the rest of us. Oh well. Who cares right? Do I really care? Do I really give a fuck? Do you, if you're still politely reading along at this point in this overblown tirade? It's not like I actually knew this guy I'm writing about. Chances are you didn't either. Just another black guy on death row to most of us. And now he's dead. It's all so banal and so pointless and so predictable. But...nevertheless...
You know i was kinda surprised I have to admit. I didnt actually think Arnold had much of a heart but I thought he would look at this from a shrewd polititian's point of view and seeing how his approval polls are about as low as Bush's right now,  maybe he'd think "hey here's a chance to show I'm not quite such a right-wing prick as I've made myself out to be". (Cutting nurses benefits should be too shameless for anyone to contemplate but Arnie has no shame aparantly). Well turns out  I was wrong.  But then again  maybe I'm not wrong  about my theory of  Arnold's  motives but just wrong about a few background facts. I just found out that, as well as the majority of Californians supporting the death penalty, (real fucking liberal oasis isn't it, the sunshine state?), aparantly the majority supported killing Tookie in particular.  So I suppose the people have spoken. And the people crave ritual killing. Its like a gladitorial event, in a way. The fucking emperor looks out at the people imperiously (as emperors are wont to do), and, benevolently (as many like to see themselves), gazes down and gauges accurately the reaction of the roaring crowd. The great man gives a majestic, stately, princely, sagely...thumbs down!  His penalty is death. And that penalty must be paid. Who cares if this guy was actually doing some good in the world from his prison cell? Who gives a fuck that we are one of the last western countries that still uses the death penalty? Who really gives a shit that we exceute minors for fuck's sake! Puting us in an elite group, as has been said by others before, with Iran and Saudi Arabia! Incidentally, the other thing those two countries have in common with us, besides despotic rulers, is a highly religious overall population, along with a powerful and influential religious fundamentalist subsection of that population. Make of that what you will. I didn't say shit. Just reporting the facts. Just the facts, ma'am. But I've just gotta say, man, it sure feels good to be living in the greatest country in the world! Wow, I sure am glad I was lucky enough to be born white and middle class, Christian, and American, that's all I know. I don't know why more people don't apperciate the wonderful "freedom" we have to offer the rest of the world. Those Iraqis, for instance, what a a buncha ungreatful assholes. Can you say sour grapes?

 Posted 12/13/2005 11:09 PM - 8 comments

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I got bored reading after a while, but I felt like pointing out a couple things to you.

A jury of citizens and a lot of panels of judges decided that Williams was deserving of death long before Arnold decided to not overturn their rulings.  They have far more culpability in this action than he does.

If Davis was still in power (and remember he was supposed to be before the recall put Arnold in place) then he would have signed that death warrent with far less thought than Arnold did, just as he signed every other death warrent and refused to grant nearly every other murderer's parole while he was in office.

And I don't even like Arnold.  I never considered voting for him.  I even voted against the recall and voted for a democrat in the recall.  But your sound-off is just ridiculous.

Posted 12/16/2005 6:19 PM by dankster312 - reply

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Also, you seem extraordinarily focused on Williams's race.  I don't see how any of this has anything to do with his race.  Do you believe that if a White guy founded the most brutal gang currently operating in the country, was convicted of the same brutal murders committed in the same fashion using the same evidence, and had acted the same way while he was in prison (plotted to kill captors, plotted to escape, refused to turn other any information helpful to bring justice to anyone, never apologized for any murders committed or inspired, wrote a few books saying gangs were wrong), that he would have been treated any different?  I'm sorry, but as a country we've been treating our notorious brutal White murderers the same way we've treated our notorious brutal Black murderers.   It's the no-name Black guys that get screwed, not "Tookie".  There are many, many factors (money, fame, reputation, brutality of crime) that end up being a lot more important than race.
Posted 12/16/2005 6:30 PM by dankster312 - reply

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Well the founder of the KKK was probably white and his organization was responsible for the slaughter of many African Americans or Minority's. But last I heard was an old KKK member ended up getting released b/c of his age to serve his sentence at home. Edgar Ray Killan I believe his name was. Our Country doesn't treat race equally even in Law. Thats a historical fact and repeated pattern in modern times. If Race wasn't an issue in law then having an All White Jury or All Black Jury wouldn't be reason to call for a mistrial in certain cases. But it is.
Posted 12/16/2005 7:30 PM by LordRaptor - reply

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I'm sorry you got bored dankster. It was a little overly long maybe, I admit. Frankly, though, I wasn't really writing it with an audience in mind but just expressing what was on my mind. Sometimes when I don't post in a while I forget that people actually read my stuff. How wonderful to know that I do have at least one faithful reader. But how disapointing to learn that you were bored. Oh well. I'm over it. Thanks a lot for taking the time to point some things out for me anyway. Since you were so kind to write not one but two comments despite your general uninterest in my post, I thought I would reply to some of your criticisms.
Yes, I do realize that Williams was convicted and had used up all his appeals long before Arnold had a chance to save his life. But you see Dankster, my post wasn't about comparing who had "more culbability" in his death. That's for people like you to pointlessly debate long after the fact. My post was post was directed at a person who could have spared another person's life and chose not to. I don't care who had "more" culbability. Arnold was the one who made the final decision and the only one who could have stopped the execution. In that light by choosing not to, he certainly bears responsibility for his choice. What Gray Davis would have done is completely irrelevent. That you state as though your speculations have the weight of fact "would have signed that death warrent with far less thought than Arnold did" is truly bizzare. You have no way of knowing what someone else would have done. If someone else were govenor maybe my post would be about them. But here you are trying to make irrelevent comparisons again. Now suddenly this is about the merits of Davis vs. Arnold? What? I'm not sure why you thought it would be interesting to tell me who you voted for but thanks anyway.
Race does play a big part in the death penalty in this country. It's a fact that black people are statistically much more likely to be sentenced to death than white people for commiting the same crimes. I never once said that I thought if Williams was white Arnold would have pardoned him. But it may have had an impact on both the outcome of his trial as well as his sentencing in the first place. Race was an aspect of this whole thing. He was convicted by an entirely white jury as I pointed out. I don't think it makes sense to call that a jury of his peers. He was also convicted on the the basis of testimony from felons who's testimony was saving them from prosecution, so in other words, people who had a motive to lie. I'm not saying this proves he was innocent. Just that it is not an open and shut case that he was guilty. That said, the main reason I was angry about this was Arnold's pathetic stated reason for choosing to let him be killed. Essentially it was that he didn't show remorse. Yet how can he show remorse for what he didn't do? Arnold doesn't seem to even consider the possibility that he's innocent. But this is possible. And if he's innocent he'd have to lie in order to show remorse. It's an unreasonable burden to place on him to have to prove that he has reformed, when in fact his actions of working against gang violence are in themselves enough to show that he was a changed man and should have been given clemency.
I hope that was less boring this time. I tried to make it a bit shorter due to what I take to be a limited attention span.
Posted 12/17/2005 7:26 AM by Bokonin - reply

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Actually, you didn't hear long enough.  The last I heard was that Edgar Ray Killen's bond was revoked and he was forced to stay in prison. http://www.picayuneitem.com/articles/2005/11/18/news/12killen.txt

(As a note about our country's reaction to the founders of the KKK, the original KKK was founded in 1865 and completely destroyed by the government within the decade.  But I don't consider that comparable because the KKK and the Crips were founded in completely different eras)

"If Race wasn't an issue in law then having an All White Jury or All Black Jury wouldn't be reason to call for a mistrial in certain cases. But it is."

This is distinctly not true.  Having an all-White jury or an all-Black jury is not enough reason to call for a mistrial.  A mistrial can only be declared if evidence is shown that the reason there was an all-White jury or all-Black jury was because of preferrential racial treatment by the attorneys involved.  In other words, if you can show that race was a factor in jury selection, a mistrial can be declared.  But an all-White or all-Black jury is just fine as long as race was not a factor in jury selection.  This is evidence that race should never be an issue in law (see Supreme Court's second decision in Miller-El v. Dretke, 2005).

Posted 12/17/2005 9:30 AM by dankster312 - reply

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Thank you for giving my response more rational thought than I gave yours.  I actually went back and read your entire post after writing my comment.  I'm not sure why I responded so bluntly and meanly.  I think that I just get pissed off when I feel that people are being unfairly attacked and I get overly defensive.

I'm not sure how much you know about Grey Davis, but he consistently demonstrated a lack of compassion for those in prison.  I hated him for that even when I was a dyed-in-the-wool liberal.  Here's a link from a source that agrees with me: http://talkleft.com/new_archives/004734.html.  I think that the comparison is exceedingly relevant because you rail against the very idea of Arnold getting elected and seem to use this issue as the sparking point for you rant.  I was showing that his election was actually a positive step in the direction of prisoner rights.

I voted against the recall because I didn't want the Republicans to get that political victory, even though I hated Davis.  I hated the major Republican figureheads behind the recall just as much or more.  I originally supported Peter Ueberroth, who ran as an independent and has shown a tremendous ability to control difficult economic situations (see his work in the Olympics and MLB) and that his heart is in the right place (see his work after the LA riots).   I still think he would have made the best candidate and am saddened that he didn't run a better campaign.  After he withdrew I voted for Danny Ramirez, a pro-life Democrat from Calexico.  I did not feel like I could morally justify support for any of the remaining four major candidates. 

Race is a huge factor in many death penalty cases.  I agree that it is a problem in many cases.  I acknowledged that when I said that "It's the no-name Black guys that get screwed, not "Tookie".  There are many, many factors (money, fame, reputation, brutality of crime) that end up being a lot more important than race."  Famous Black men (see the OJ's, MJ's, Snoop Doggs, and R. Kellys) always get the same advantages in our legal system and the public eye that famous White men get.  (sometimes more - do you think that there's any chance that R. Kelly's work would still be acceptable in the public eye if he were a White man and did what he did?)

Interesting side note that the left side of this discussion will never acknowledge: before Williams there had been 12 executions in California since the reinstitution of the death penalty.  9 Whites, 1 Latino, 1 Asian, and 1 Black were executed.  None of those others received nearly as much attention for their cases as Williams did.

 Williams was not convicted by an all-White jury.  That was one of those lies that gets repeated enough that it is believed.  There was at least one Latina and one Black person on the jury, and I've heard that there was also a Filipina (although that may be a case of mistaken identity).  There is also direct evidence that Tookie knew it was not an all-White jury (http://www.tookie.com/tookie_fact_sheet_10.18.05.pdf), even though he lied and called it an all-White jury at other times: http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/11/1786773.php

I don't believe that this was an open-and-shut case, I believe that it was a carefully deliberated and then correctly decided case.  I am not going to judge Tookie's actual redemption because I don't know the man well enough to do so.  For me the most important factor in determining whether or not his sentence should be commuted is whether or not he is still influencing gang violence in a negative way, as prison guards have claimed.  Many of the most notorious and damaging gang leaders continue to kill people and order killiings behind bars - in fact, many of the most dangerous men in this respect are in prison.  My philosophy on the death penalty is that it is necessary in the rare circumstances where someone is clearly guilty and it is clear that they could kill again if given the chance.  I used to be anti-death penalty, but changed after reading this insightful article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1005201-1,00.html.  As I have said, I don't have the facts of the case I need to make a clear determination of Williams under this criteria.  I also don't think that Arnold has the same criteria as I do.  But I do think that Arnold's criteria are defensible and that the character attack against him is unjustified.  Hate the game, not the player.  Peace out.

(thanks for the shortness. I am one of the rare actual sufferers of ADD and conciseness is helpful)

Posted 12/17/2005 10:12 AM by dankster312 - reply

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I thought you weren't going to post again.
Posted 12/19/2005 6:03 PM by d_entree - reply

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You thought wrong. Apparently.
Posted 12/19/2005 6:49 PM by Bokonin - reply


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