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Posted by: FKIProfessor

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Original: 8/31/2005 7:52 AM
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Wednesday, August 31, 2005
 
Currently Watching
Back to the Future - The Complete Trilogy (Full Screen Edition)
By Michael J. Fox
see related

A few more pics of Fairytale Courthouse in Salem Indiana

 

Courthouse - built in 1885 of local limestone, still in operation today.

 

Astronomy Forecast

There is supposed to be a conjunction of Venus and Jupiter this Saturday evening.

 

Lance Vs. The Scales

Today is the day I go in for my final weigh in as a paying member of Weight Watchers. Unless I eat a small horse between now and noon I’ll be earning my lifetime membership today. Today marks one year and one day since my first weigh in. If you’d asked how long it would take when I started I’d have said never. By Christmas last year I thought I could do it by July. Well, cocky is just as bad as wimpy as neither are right. I’ll come back and let you all know the final weight this afternoon. EDIT: Though up 1 lb for the week, I was still well below my goal weight and received my lifetime membership today at noon. Thanks to my special friends Patty, Annette, and Elke who cheered me on and kept me going all the way. Thanks also to all you xanga buddies for all your encouragement this past year. Special thanks to the Lord for giving me life, enriching my life, and for all the good He is and does.

 

Quake Report

Japan M6.2

Sandwich Islands M5.8

 

About Today’s Lesson

On Monday nobody challenged the idea that God does not deceive people. I’m a little surprised based on the amount of evidence to the contrary. Not that the evidence really means God deceives, but a lot of people seem to think God would deceive. What follows are some popular passages used to try and make the claim God does lie and therefore shows the bible as a false document and our faith to be false. I’ve done my best to refute each, but if you’ve got more to add (to either side of the argument) I’d be very pleased to hear from you.

 

James 1:16

Do not err, my beloved brethren. — KJV

Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.— NIV

Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. — ESV

 

1.16.6 If God doesn’t deceive, then what about these verses?

There are many seeming contradictions people point to in the bible in an effort to prove it wrong and, by extension, to destroy the faith of those who believe the bible to be true and accurate. What follows are four passages used for that purpose which at first appear to contradict Titus 1:2 and similar verses. With each verse is an attempt to explain logically how these verses are misinterpreted, misunderstood, or taken out of context.

 

1 Ki 22:20-23 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.” This passage is an excerpt from a story about a messenger named Micaiah who was – in these verses – telling the king what God had told him. The events that followed showed the prophesy was true. Perhaps this is only a technicality, but it is important to note from this passage that God himself used a willing spirit to go and lie. God didn’t personally lie, though he did allow a lie. This should not be viewed as unreasonable or unusual since he allows us to lie all the time. We do not know the nature of the spirit God used.

 

2 Thess 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, The Greek for delusion in this sentence is Plane, a form of the word translated err or deceived in James 1:16. Since God doesn’t lie this is difficult to reconcile. One interpretation might follow 1 Kings 22, particularly since it is stated that God sends the delusion. It doesn’t say God delivers or even authors the delusion. Perhaps he only is controlling the routing of a lie and not actually creating it. Another interpretation would suggest that the purpose of the delusion is to prove for the public what God himself already knows about the hearts of the people described in the context.

 

Rev 17:17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. In this passage no technicality can rescue God. Of course with God no technicality is actually required, but that’s beside the point. First of all, notice that God had previously said he would do something and now he must fulfill what he said. This shows God will keep his earlier promise. Next, examine this verse in context. It falls within an angel’s explanation of the vision of the great prostitute and the beast. Those who would have it “put into their hearts” to submit to the beast, at least for a certain time, are people who were already being presented with a lie by the beast. In actuality God is merely withdrawing from those men so that they would follow their own natural inclination to follow the beast.

 

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. This passage is included in the text describing a test of sorts. In the greater context God is telling his prophet that some Israelites were worshiping idols, but was offering a chance for them to come to his prophet and seek God’s council via that prophet. The Lord goes on to say he will listen and answer. Eze 14:9 is essentially saying if the prophet gets deceived he’s really a false prophet and will die. In following verse God warns that both the false prophet and those who sought council from the false prophet will die.

 Posted 8/31/2005 7:52 AM - 20 comments

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Greetings, sir.  Pix are gorgeous, esp. the second one, because I'm particularly enamored of sunsets.  Congrats on the weight loss.
Posted 8/31/2005 9:04 AM by twoberry Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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Oh Lance!  I wish I had the brain capacity today to dive into this one!  My only contribution in the feeble mindset I'm in is the small fact that one of the ten commandments says thou shalt not lie.  This makes lying a sin.  Deceiving is lying. And since God cannot sin, I can say that He cannot deceive.  I do know from Job though that He allows us to be tempted.  Keyword: Allows...

RYC:  I'm trying to do better... fortunately I learned my lesson!

Posted 8/31/2005 9:09 AM by Me_N_God - reply

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You know what I find most interesting? If no one disagrees with you, you argue with yourself. I love it!

Rock those scales, my brother! That's quite an accomplishment!

Pictures of old buildings are cool.

BE blessed!
Steve : cool :
Posted 8/31/2005 9:15 AM by mourning2dancing Xanga True Member - reply

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I have to agree with Shell on this one, although I have always wondered about something.....We know how sin got into this world..but how did it start in the first place?  We know that Satan was cast to Earth because he led a rebellion against God.  Did sin start with Satan and not Adam?  Sin had to come from someplace.  If so did God create sin?  How, since we know that God is holy, did He keep sin away from himself? I know, I'm weird.  Congrats on the weight loss!!!!  Good luck today.  I also agree with Steve....old buildings are cool.
Posted 8/31/2005 9:56 AM by lightwithinme - reply

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Those churches are so pretty. I know just being there would be a relaxed, peaceful environment.

ryc: lol, I don't see the Richard Dreyfus, either. haha. What I need to do is set people in front of the laptop and say, "Okay, who does he look like?" I can't even remember a movie he did, so I can't look by movie. lol, maybe you should make a post asking people.

Posted 8/31/2005 9:59 AM by J_La_20 Xanga Premium Member - reply

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Steve just cracks me up! 
Posted 8/31/2005 10:27 AM by snowberryoxcream Xanga Premium Member - reply

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Hi Lance! I like your post, but I do have a couple things to say about it if you don't mind.

 Taking James 1:16 out of context and allowing it to stand alone is the biggest problem with the implied "proof" that God would deceive His children. If we go back to the start of the paragraph at James 1:13 and follow through to James 1:18 what is said is: 

"When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth that we may be a kind of first-fruits of all He created." (NIV)

This passage taken within its entire context is enough to make the idea that God Himself would lie or deceive His children a moot point.

And, to further debunk any thoughts that God would lie or deceive His children in John 8:43-47 Jesus in speaking with some Jews says:

 ”Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native-language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (NIV)

My own take then on your question as to whether or not God would deceive His children is clearly spelled out in the above scripture. God allows those who do not belong to Him to be deceived by Satan because Satan is the chosen "father" of the non-believer. God gave us the free will to choose who we want to follow in our lives. Those who follow God can hear His voice clearly, guiding their every step. (Not that that means we have never stumbled! We are all sinners.) Those who choose to follow the father of this earth, Satan, cannot hear God because Satan keeps their heads filled with lies, doubts, fear and deception.

I know this is long, but I felt a great need to express myself on this subject. Thank you for allowing me to do so. And, I hope that perhaps further discussion can follow on the truths of God and His Word. I love to learn anything and everything I can in relation to "my Abba"!

Thank you for your thought provoking blog post!! : biggrin : 

Posted 8/31/2005 10:39 AM by Pastel_moon Xanga Premium Member - reply

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In regards to the verse in II Thes. 2, right before the portion you quoted, God explains the reason why He sends strong delusion. BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth. So, it's in response to the rebellion in people that CHOOSE NOT to receive the love of the truth.
Posted 8/31/2005 10:42 AM by LSP1 - reply

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Have to agree with Shell also. And Steve. You do have a tendency to debate yourself, but I think that's great because you look at things from all sides. Great, thought-provoking post.
Posted 8/31/2005 10:53 AM by Sandcastles Xanga Premium Member - reply

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I hope your weigh in goes well.
Posted 8/31/2005 11:03 AM by TheTheologiansCafe Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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Hi Lance, I'm a Lance too. Thanks for the visit. RYC, yes, Kerry Livgren's (Dust In the Wind, etc.) story is an interesting one. I don't know if it's still in print, but he had published an autobiography called 'Seeds of Change'. I found it interesting reading - I'va always appreciated his music and lyrics, and he turned out to be quite a thoughtful guy and not your typical 'rock star'.
Posted 8/31/2005 11:38 AM by left0verture - reply

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I agree with Steve, it is humorous, that you are arguing your point with yourself...that is hilarious...I do understand the thought though...I also agree with Pastel moon....

I think if there are controversies on scripture that APPEARS to controdict itself...that it is because words have not been translated properly.....I do not think that God can or would lie or deceive.

I also do not like the word Allow....God has set things up a certain way, and we do it to ourselves...just my thoughts...Irene  Oh congrats on the weight loss....I am still stuck on my plato....I need to eat more veggies...haven't done too well lately....but am still trying..

Posted 8/31/2005 12:31 PM by SonshineDepot - reply

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in order to answer the question you need to define what it means to deceive

with a proper understanding of what deception is, then yes, God does deceive people.

Posted 8/31/2005 1:19 PM by DrThunderpants - reply

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Congrats on lifetime.  I'm working my way there as well. 
Posted 8/31/2005 1:27 PM by melbarudy - reply

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I think you would be intrigued by my niece Tara. Her site is tarajoy4ever  and I would be interested in what you think of her..She has had an amazing life. She is a teacher in Columbus. She is a language major and teaches kids in a high school that do not speak any english and have come here to live  she just went on a 2 week road trip and she writes about it  I think alot of people would subscribe to her if they read her one time
Posted 8/31/2005 2:22 PM by Good_Shepherd Xanga Premium Member - reply

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that second picture looks like it could be a missing tower in disneyland!
Posted 8/31/2005 3:05 PM by oh_captain_my_captain - reply

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Professor Lance: I read a few of your posts to get an idea of what you write.  I was especially glad to see you tackle some of the problem areas in scripture.   I tend to be interested in apologetics since I really desire to be actively involved in reaching the lost for Christ.   I'm subscribing and will keep an eye on your Xanga. 
Posted 8/31/2005 3:21 PM by secureintruth - reply

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Hon, I am SO geeked about this challenge, and will be back to tackle it, but right now...?  I just can't.  Life is calling.  Hollaring, actually.
Posted 8/31/2005 4:16 PM by Anna - reply

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just wanted to say HI
Posted 8/31/2005 10:59 PM by heart_for_the_youth - reply

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Twoberry - Thanks. Glad you liked.

Shell - I figured you were one of a handful who could take this on and come back with some good stuff, but I completely understand your situation and wasn't even expecting you to come by, let alone certainly investing time in this.

Steve - You seem to have hit upon something here. I kinda like that about myself. Me too. Yeah, so do I. Well, I don't. Oh, forget it. You shutup. No, you. Hey! - Knock it off. Thanks, Steve...

Light - How Satan became "self-aware" and made the independent decision to oppose God is a great mystery. Its not that the reason is unimportant, but Satan's fall is a fact. Man's fall is also a fact. Jesus refers in several cases to Satan as the father of lies. We have in the 3rd chapter of Genesis the account of the fall of man. Adam and Eve gave in to their own desires, and its true that God put the things in place that made it all possible, but the actions of Satan and Adam were of their own respective choosing, not God's choosing. How can you blame God for Adam eating the fruit. It was God who told him not to, after all. Satan's the one who told the whopper about how much good it would do him. As far as we know sin began with Satan. We know that Satan coaxed man into sin. Adam made his own choice, but not without help. God didn't create sin, but God created and what was created sinned.

Jen - Those are shots of the courthouse in Salem. LOL. I took up your challenge for the Thursday post.

Leigh Ann - He seems to be onto something. A number of folks agreed with him.

Pastel Moon - Thanks for the extended rebuttal. That's some very useful stuff there. Duh - of course I should have used the preceeding verses from James as context. But given the problems with the other scriptures mentioned, the problem isn't having verses saying God doesn't lie, the problem is with verses that suggest he would. As for taking V16 out of context, I don't think I'm doing that by doing a study on the concept of deception. The study verse is a launching pad for all these other questions. We will be coming back to the greater context of the verse later, too tho, so stay tuned. All that said, your points are excellent. Its really made me wonder if I took the wrong approach to addressing these issues. I particularly liked the rebuttal of Jn 8. Please do not hesitate to state your thoughts on any post of mine.

Larry - Are you suggesting God won't deceive his own people, but would deceive those who aren't his?

Alyx - I do like to look at all angles, and I'm not afraid to dig myself a hole. LOL. Yes, Steve and Shell always have insites that make me think! : wink : So do you.

Dan - Thanks. Went Great!

Lance - I've only met a few other folks in my life with the same first name. You're my first other xangan Lance. How cool is that?

Irene - Sometimes it is a translation problem, but other times its merely a problem with our understanding of context.

Joel - We did define deception earlier in the study. It basically means to lie by virtue of creating a false impression or making someone believe something that isn't true. You say you believe God does deceive. Can you please elaborate and add further scripture references?

Melba - If I can do it, you can do it. I wish you the best success! : biggrin :

Sharon - I'll have to check her out. Thanks.

Cap'n - Wow - you commented on my picture!!! : biggrin :: biggrin : hehehe. Thanks for stopping by. Yes, we always thought it looked a little like DisneyWorld.

Secure - Not all my posts are designed to create controversy, but I'm not shy from it when its needed.

Anna - Well, I know you'll have something grand to contribute.

Heart - Hello to you, too.

Posted 9/1/2005 8:18 AM by FKIProfessor Xanga True Member - reply


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