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Original: 1/8/2007 9:06 AM
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Monday, January 08, 2007
 

Pass The Baton
I recently joined a new blogring called Pass The Baton. By joining this group a person accepts they will receive a question from another member. The questions are challenging theological questions. The person challenged gets a couple of days to come up with an answer. After that they get to issue a challenge to another member of the blogring. If you want to participate, join the blogring. If you just like to read, here's my first challenge. See what you think...

Today's Challenge
"We know that God does not like unrepenant sin. Yet there are TONS of people in the Church living in this type of sin (pride, idolatry, you name it). I think we obviously all have "occasions" where we live in an unrepenant state, so my question is this: Do you think people who have accepted Jesus as their savior, but are knowingly living with some sort of unrepented sin, will still go to Heaven? Why or why not??"

And my response...
We know the wage of sin is death (Ro 6:23) and none of us are sinless (Eccl 7:20). This challenge is well founded (Ps 7:12). Is 1:7 says repentence is a form of righteousness that results in salvation. The word "repent" essentially means to have a change of mind and heart. In the biblical sense it means to change one's mind from sinful ways to Godly ways. Repentence doesn't make us perfect, it makes us forgiven - not by our own power in the repenting, but by the grace of a God who shows undeserved mercy because of love.

In Genesis we learn about Abraham. In Heb 11:8-10 regarding Abraham we get key insight into the foundation of the matter upon which we can build an answer to this challenge question. Abraham acted in faith. We know Abraham sinned along the way, but we also know he was driven in earnest by a deep unwaivering faith in what the Lord had told him. He trusted what God said and he acted on it. What we say and do proceeds out of the heart and Abraham had faith. Faith doesn't perfect, only God can perfect. Abraham was justified by his faith, not because the things he did justified his sins, but because God decided to look past the sin. Faith propels us. If we have faith in ourselves, in worldly things, in lies... then such faith propels us away from God. If our faith is in God we will be propelled toward Him and we will be compelled to strive toward His good work and actions of obedience which is to say we will be doers of love (Eph 2:10).

Getting back to the question at hand, will a person with unrepentent sin still go to heaven? All sin can be forgiven except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit (Lk 12:10). Must all sin be repented of? That's the real question, isn't it? Acts 3:19 implores us to repent so our sins will be blotted out. The blood of Christ is what redeems us from sin, but is that blood given to all or only those who meet certain conditions? Eph 2:8-9 suggest nothing we do is sufficient, presumably even repenting. By the same token, even Jesus commanded repentence.

My answer then is this... Are we turning to God or from Him? Do we turn to the saving blood of our Lord, admitting his is the only way to salvation and submitting to him, or do we stand on the sandy foundation of our own self-righteousness? Jesus said it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved, yet he also said all things were possible through him. My answer: we are not the judge. We are, however, messengers. Ezekiel was told to give the warning even though people would not listen. Jesus came even though many refused to listen and even his closest friends bailed on him in his worst hour. Yet for some inexplicable reason God tarries from judgment, even allowing mercy to triumph over judgment (Ja 2:13). I don't know the answer to the question because I'm not the judge, but I do know it is my duty to give the message - repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Next Challenge
To OJesuslovesyousomuch: When the body dies, does the soul (or spirit?) go directly someplace or does it "sleep" until an appointed time of resurrection (and judgment)?

 

 Posted 1/8/2007 9:06 AM - 21 comments

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New post up regarding kingdom on WC
Posted 1/8/2007 9:19 AM by wildernesschild - reply

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Hehe. I like your answer. And cant' wait to see Deb's answer to your challenge (I may even have to do a post on that one...)
Posted 1/8/2007 9:23 AM by Building_A_Mystery - reply

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Interesting response. To me, I think the real question asked was, "Can you lose your salvation?" Seems that's kind of the heart of the matter and all to me, though I didn't ask the question. As for that, my personal belief is that I don't think we're in a constant state of losing and gaining back our salvation, but as it's easily pointed out, many people can have different beliefs on this.

We rarely repent of known sin directly after committing it, and if non-repentence leads to loss of salvation then what about unknown sin? This would lead to the suggestion anyone who dies without asking for forgiveness just before their dying breath is pretty much out of the question for getting to Heaven, to me. Just some thoughts, whatever my $.02 is worth.

I guess I'm just curious (in pure conjecture) then, on your part, which way do you think God sways? That is, if you feel comfortable saying at all.

Good challenge question, as well.

God bless,
~Scott
Posted 1/8/2007 10:34 AM by gelatinemonkey Xanga True Member - reply

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A person who claims to believe in Christ but does not repent is a false convert. Even the demons believe, but they are not saved. The primary message of John the Baptist was "Repent, for the Kingdom is at hand". Likewise, the first words of Jesus in public ministry recorded in the Bible is "Repent, for the Kingdom is at hand". "Unless you repent, you too will perish". (Luke 13:3,5)

A person who claims to believe in Christ but does not repent does not really have saving faith. It is like a person who is in a crashing plane, says he trusts in the parachute, but dare not jump out of the plane. His belief in the parachute is not really belief at all. It is just an external front- a meaningless claim that does not have deep conviction.
Posted 1/8/2007 11:22 AM by PhilosophyOfJoel Xanga Premium Member - reply

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Do you think people who have accepted Jesus as their savior, but are knowingly living with some sort of unrepented sin, will still go to Heaven?

I would say that the question is improperly phrased. The issue is not whether such a person will go to Heaven when they die. The proper issue is whether such a person is living NOW in the kingdom of God. The clear answer to the revised question is no. A person who is knowingly wallowing in unrepentant sin is choosing death NOW, and that's what really matters. The question of where such a person will go when they die is, I think, a diversion from the real issue which is how can such a person be brought back to the place where they are functioning in God's kingdom the way God intended?

Jesus said it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved

At the risk of being just oh so annoying, I note that in the eye-of-the-needle passages, Jesus did not talk about the rich man being saved. He talked about the rich man entering the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Mark 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Luke 18:25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Posted 1/8/2007 12:20 PM by Laserlawyer Xanga True Member - reply

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Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Posted 1/8/2007 2:25 PM by illgrindmyownthankyou - reply

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My mother put the fear in my heart that if I was caught in a sin and a brick fell on my head and killed me that I would go straight to hell.  Boy, I avoided anyplace bricks could fall for such a long time.  What a misconception of the gospel.  In my teen years - the time of the flying brick theology - I felt like giving up on God.  I knew that I would continue to sin despite the fact that I loved the Lord.  Then I learned about Grace, mercy and true repentance; some of the mysteries of the Christ; the power of the resurrection.  I am so thankful to be in love with the Lord and have a relationship with Him not based on fear. 
Posted 1/8/2007 4:04 PM by OJesuslovesyousomuch Xanga Premium Member - reply

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Hey you, havnt heard from you in awhile :) This blogring you joined sounds interesting, I am going to join it.

Glad to see your still at it:)

in Christ,

Charles

Posted 1/8/2007 7:55 PM by letseewhatthiswilldo Xanga True Member - reply

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and a p.s. .... i just read your post in response to the question, and it is amazing. You encouraged me greatly, and I am impressed with the thoroughness of your answer. Thank you for taking the time to do this, it is not in vain. You are faithful Lance, and your reward is waiting where no one, and nothing can take away, nor degrade...

You and I, we have much to look forward to.

in Christ,

Charles.

Posted 1/8/2007 8:01 PM by letseewhatthiswilldo Xanga True Member - reply

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When you continue knowingly to sin you are puttingout theSpirits fire, If you do so long enough you won't be hearing him and I believe you have fallen under judgement and are handed over to a reprbate mind. So whether you lose you're soul or not you are certainly headed for destruction and most dangerous of all are out from under God's protection. 

Posted 1/8/2007 8:02 PM by New1E13_15 - reply

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hmm Quakers, as you might know don't accept the Bible as the final authority on these subjects, but rather test the heart and the atitude through coming to the silence.

A Quaker might rather answer this question with a counter question.

Does this one who 'sins' have an observable relationship with the Light? Does this person seek the light?

For those who do evil will not come into the light. John 3:20

Just my Quakerly view on it.

Namaste
Posted 1/8/2007 9:56 PM by Pheebles Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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Thank you so much for your thoughtful and well written response. :) I enjoyed reading it, and learned much.

Can't wait to read the response to YOUR question....

Posted 1/9/2007 1:21 AM by peacefulveganmom - reply

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Great thoughts...  and great "next challenge" question...  I'd like to hear what you garner from that.  It's a question that goes pretty deep and touches a lot of other fundemantal issues in theology, although it might not seem like it first glance. 

As for clinging to a known sin...  it's a sad outlook, but the Bible points to sin as separation from God...  In Isaiah, it is written that our iniquities and transgressions are what separates us from God...  In Psalm 66:18, David writes that if he regards (read: cherished/held/loved) sin in his heart, the Lord will not hear him.  We cannot hope to love God and love sin...  this is a fundemental principle of God.  He is a jealous God (Ex 20:5, 34:14, etc.) and unless our hearts are turned towards Him, we are merely using Him as a crutch, rather than our Saviour... 

Hope you've had a wonderful New Year's...  and blessings for the days to come..!

Posted 1/9/2007 11:09 AM by jensa07 - reply

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In Revelation, it speaks of crowns.  If you do this, you get this crown.  If you make it through this, you get this crown.  These all apply to us too.  But if one is allowing sin to dominate their walk, I agree with Daniel that you will quench the Spirit, and I agree with Jensa07 that the Lord will not hear you, and I do agree with Philosophy of Joel that if one states they believe but don't repent that they are probably a false convert, but then I agree with you that who am I to judge?  All this to say that if one is truly a believer but is having an isuse with a certain sin dominating their walk, if they continue to let it dominate, they risk losing some of their treasures stored up in heaven, they risk quenching the Spirit, and they risk the Lord not hearing them anymore.  To which they should then ask themselves if they are really truly saved.  But in the end, I am only responsible for my walk and I can only encourage other people in theirs.  I'll leave the judging up to God.  He's much better suited for it.  Just my 2 cents.

Posted 1/9/2007 11:55 AM by Shells_2_cents - reply

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Posted 1/9/2007 1:14 PM by TheWorshipCafe Xanga Premium Member - reply

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Pastor Don pointed out to me that when we get saved our spirits are renewed, and eventually our flesh catches up to the Spirit. God begins to clean us of our sins one by one, but He does it in His timing and in His way. We have a lot of exdrug addicts in our church who still smoke cigarettes. God is letting them smoke but is dealing with the drug issue and drug problems and family situations. When those are solved, God may pick another area to work on. He is not going to tear us apart in building us up. But as we get to know him, we will expand the holiness in our lives.

Heather

Posted 1/9/2007 1:25 PM by wondering04 Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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I concur with your reply.  It is easy for us to look at others and say they are living in sin but much harder for us to see the sin in our own lives. 

I try very hard not to judge others because they are not accountable to me.  They are accountable to the Lord...and so am I.

If someone asks me what I think of something specifically, I will give honest reproach if needed...but I always use gentleness and love in all of my actions.  I think it is because I take such care that people ask for and respect my opinions when I give them. 

People respond to love.  They find the courage and strength to change their lives when they know that there is someone else who believes that they can change.

The saddest thing I have found is that not everyone wants to change...even when they realize the emptiness in their lives.  Only acceptance of the Lord can fill that gulf. 

I appreciate your thoughts and your willingness to share them.

Posted 1/9/2007 1:41 PM by OrionGazing Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply

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Everyone - I cannot thank you all enough for your responses. I'm overwhelmed. For those who agreed with me, thanks. For those who brought entirely new perspectives I want to thank you also and add how much I appreciate the views. You've all inspired me to post again on this subject.
Posted 1/9/2007 2:46 PM by FKIProfessor Xanga True Member - reply

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May I ask what happens if we got in an accident and died instantly?   We don't get a "last chance" to ask for forgiveness for the sins we did that day.  I know Jesus' blood covers us but don't we need to repent daily?  I guess I'm just confused about how to explain it or what I'm even asking.

Also, I wonder why  Anias and Sapphira never got the chance to repent for their sin of lying.  Why were they just struck dead?  I realize that God may have wanted to show His power.  However, since Ananias and Sapphira had been part of the group of believers and had decided to sell their land and share their money, doesn't that seem harsh?  Why, after being confronted by Peter, do you think there wasn't a public display of forgiveness?

Please forgive me if I'm getting off track!

Posted 1/10/2007 7:34 PM by auntbeesbaking - reply

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Hey professor, I got in on it late but I lrft a comment on Debbie's site. This was quite interesting.
Posted 1/11/2007 11:30 AM by angel45 - reply

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Aunt Bee: You asked some great questions. I want to do justice, but we'll see. You asked if we die instantly what about the daily repentence. I think repentence is more of an ongoing condition where we live in general with our focus on God rather than the world. I don't think of repentence as a one-time event or a daily ritual. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the word "repent" literally means to change one's mind. I believe daily confession is good for the soul, but confession and repentence are two very different things. The Lord already knows, so confession isn't for him, it is for us. The Annanias and Sepphira incident is one of the most vivid examples of what happens when you cheat God. Only God knows their hearts and why He would take them out of life immediately. Christ will judge them, not us. It is reasonable to ask if they ever did repent of their worldly ways to begin with since they demonstrated they were still living lies. I think A&S were wolves in sheep's clothing and Peter's job was to cleanse the sin from their midst. What Peter did was at least as important as what A&S did.Besides, should you forgive one who hasn't repented? Why did Jesus tell us to repent if He didn't mean it? How do you forgive the unrepentent? Well, those were my thoughts. I hope it helped.
Posted 1/11/2007 1:45 PM by FKIProfessor Xanga True Member - reply


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