David’s Arguing about Predestination Again!Note: This post is a reply to the post written recently by a fried of mine who has declared that he rejects the Reformed doctrine of Predestination. I would have posted this as a reply to his post, but the formatting would not have worked in a comment (or at least I don’t know how to make it work) and so I’m posting my inexcusably long reply here. Anyone is welcome to comment on this reply. Those who know me know how much I enjoy exploring this and similar questions of theology! “They [Adam and Eve] rejected Him. The fact that they rejected God did not mean that all their descendants lost that choice.” To say the above indicates to me that you have either neglected or ignored a great many of Paul’s letters, Old Testament passages, and even teachings of Christ himself. You are a good debater and a terrific researcher! You should know about the pertinent evidence before you make arguments and draw conclusions. In fact, there are two lines of reasoning I see that require Predestination as the only true conclusion. The first is Scriptural in that the Bible holds a consistent testimony to the truth of Predestination. The second is logical in that the free will position leads to places only accessible if one is willing break the laws of reason. Your claim which I have quoted is specifically refuted by the Psalmist: “God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. Every one of them has turned aside; they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one” (Psalm 53:2-3). This point is then made again by Paul who quotes this Psalm in the third chapter of Romans. The Holy Spirit has taken pains in both the Old and New Testaments to show that the fall of man was so extensive that it deprived man even of his ability to choose God. “…Adam and Eve made the choice to not follow God for the rest of mankind and then God has to pluck out a few of us after their mistake. I don't think that anyone who thinks that argument over thoroughly could agree.” I can assure you that more than a few of the greatest Christian minds have thought this over and agree whole heartedly! Moreover, the Cannon of Scripture agrees. The recurrent theme of the History of Israel is that they are God’s Chosen People. That is, people who did not get to choose God, but who where chosen by God according to God’s good pleasure. You are the LORD God, who chose Abram, and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans, and gave him the name Abraham” (Nehemiah 9:7). But, you may ask, what does God’s choice of Abraham have to do with us? It touches us because every believer is a part of that choice of Abraham. God said to Abraham that he and his descendents were to be God’s chosen people—elected by God’s will to be separate from the rest of man as partakers of God’s salvation. In Galatians it says that, “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29). The choice of Abraham, which was unconditional, is part of the same choice that saves all of us if, as Paul says, “you are Christ’s.” Possibly the most explicit passage which you have completely ignored and which directly refutes your conclusion is the ninth chapter of Romans. This chapter comes after Paul has established the full extent of man’s fallen condition (recall that passage from Psalm 53 which he uses in Romans 3 as evidence to this effect) and has clearly established that Adam and Eves’ choice does mean that their children lost the power to choose salvation. In the tenth verse of this chapter Paul speaks of Jacob and Esau who, when they were in their mother’s womb, were as equal as two men could be and who could not have had any chance to exercise their own wills. “And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” (Romans 9:10-13) Jacob was loved by God long before Jacob could have done anything to choose God. It is clear from God’s dealings with men that God changes men’s hearts how and when He wants according to His will: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Romans 9: 14-16) In this sense then, all men choose to do what they want, but God turns the desires of their hearts according to His sovereign plan. This, as Paul goes on to say, was the case with Pharaoh: For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 17-18) You bring up the question of accountability. Remember that God never asked our leave to create us in the first place and will certainly not ask our leave to save us. It has already been established that man’s depravity is of a nature that no sinful man desires salvation therefore damnation is only giving the sinner what he wants. God makes us and moves us as He wants, like it or not, you have no power to resist God’s will.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? (Romans 9:19-21)
Indeed, all those whom God has purposed to be damned will be damned in order that His wrath can be seen. Everything God does is done to bring Himself glory. The pain of Hell is to bring God glory as a manifestation of His perfect justice. Likewise, all who are elect are chosen so that they can show the power of God’s grace. The fact that they had nothing whatsoever to do with their election and that they in no way deserved to be chosen augments the graciousness of God’s election and so increases the glory God receives. What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:22-24) I don’t know if you have ever studied this part of Romans before, but it leaves no room for what you claim. There are two passages you quote which you assert as scriptural support for your position. The first is in final chapter of Joshua. This passage is often misapplied and that is because it is cherry picked evidence: “Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:14-15) That “therefore” in the beginning of verse fourteen is the link to the beginning of Joshua’s speech. In this speech Joshua starts out be recounting all that God has done starting with how God chose Abraham and his descendents to be His people and how God has delivered these chosen people and brought them into the promised land. This “therefore” is saying that, because God has chosen you and saved you, now you should serve him. It does not say that if you chose to serve God, you will be saved. Joshua isn’t giving God’s people the option to chose God, the first half of the speech already shows that God has chosen them. The option Joshua gives is not between serving God and not serving God, it is between serving the Gods from the other side of the River (the God’s which Abraham left) or the God’s of the Amorites. The true God is not listed in that sentence as an option! Thus we can see that fallen man may exercise his will in choosing the particular path he walks to hell, but God chooses who will be transported into heaven. The other passage you mention in Matthew 23 doesn’t appear to support your conclusion either: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’” (Matthew 23:37-39) This passage say that Jerusalem was not willing to come to Christ, but that only supports what I’ve been saying all along that the unregenerate do not have the will to accept Christ. Jesus laments because he loves them even while they are unconverted and it is never pleasant to see loved ones in rebellion. But it makes perfect sense that Jesus would love his elect before they know that they are elect. We’ve already seen that God loved Jacob before he was even born. There are many places where Christ clearly says that no one can come to Him apart from the calling (I would refer you to Matthew 7:17-18, John 6:44, and John 6:65). In His conversation with Nicodemus in John 3 Jesus uses the image of being born again. Nicodemus astutely observes that this is not possible for man. Again, this confirms what I’ve been saying that born sinners cannot remake themselves into penitents. Jesus answered and said to him [Nicodemus], “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:5-8) According to Jesus we can only be reborn by the power of the Spirit and this Spirit is something which, like the wind, we cannot predict or control. Just as we cannot choose to have the wind blow on us at any particular time, we cannot choose the Spirit (which Christ says is the only way into the kingdom of God) to regenerate us. The second main line of reasoning that requires our belief in Predestination is that the free will position denies the simple logic of cause and effect. No man ever did anything or decided anything in a vacuum. Rather, every physical or intellectual move we make is the effect of a previous cause. In our decisions there is always some preexisting determining factor that sways our minds to one side or the other and there can be no such thing as a perfectly neutral mind. There are close decisions, but ultimately every choice comes when a superior impulse triumphs over an inferior one. If you follow the train of thoughts in your head you will see that each new thought is the result of either a previous thought or an outside influence. If you follow the chain of thoughts and events back you will find that it stretches continuously across your whole life, then your parents lives, and then across all of human history to Adam and ultimately to God. How can you say you have free will if every whim you have ever had has been predetermined by thousands of years of complex chains of cause and effect? Your mind is moved by all primary causes which control all subsequent effects. You have a free will in that you make choices, but every choice you make has been chosen by cuases outside yourself. Now before we lapse into fatalism it is important to point out that the cause of salvation is the direct influence of the Holy Spirit. God didn’t simply erect a cosmic chain of dominos, push the first one over, and stand back to watch them all fall by themselves. The natural inclination or effect of sin is that all men choose to rebel against God and so God has intervened in the chain to set up new paths of dominos that lead to salvation. This intervention is the irresistible calling of the Holy Spirit. Just like each domino doesn’t have the power to set itself in a new chain, no man can be a primary cause for himself. That is something only a creator can do and God alone is the creator! To put this concept another way, if fallen man had the power to choose God, why would a single soul be lost? The choice isn’t hard! Eternal life is obviously better than eternal death! God told Adam and Eve that there was going to be a savior and they believed this promise. Their children would have certainly known about it, so why didn’t they all believe. So also for their children’s children and their children’s children’s children; all would have been told and would have made the obviously better choice. But they didn’t make this choice! In fact, huge portions of the human race even lost the memory of God’s promise to bring a savior. The sin of Adam and Eve was a cause. It made it man's nature to prefer rebellion. Every bad choice since the fall is an effect of that cause. Only God who started the chain of events can alter it. Only the God who created man in His image can recreate a man in the image of His son. | 
