Ut Unum Sint" . . . contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints." - St. Jude 3
About this Entry
Posted by: MysteriumFidei

Visit MysteriumFidei's Xanga Site

Original: 6/3/2008 6:19 PM
Views: 1657
Comments: 85
eProps: 42

Read Comments
Post a Comment
Back to Your Xanga Site


Tuesday, June 03, 2008

 
Currently Reading
Steel Construction Manual, 13th Edition (Book)
see related

Preface

I originally hesitated to write this post because the subject of the post is so sensitive and the one to whom I am responding in this post is a man I love and cherish very much, my father-in-law, Rev. Steve Schlissel from New York. If he does decide to read this, he should know that this post is written by somebody who not only loves him dearly, but admires him and looks up to him for many of his character traits. So whilst nothing is intended to be given or taken personally, it is inevitable that some may see it this way. Nevertheless, I write this with a spirit of charity and not hostility. I do disagree with him vehemently, but that should say nothing of my opinion of him personally.

Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventri tui, Jesus

In a recent post on his blog, Rev. Schlissel writes at length about the Roman Catholic “idolatry” of Mary. He asserts that if Mary were to be included in the Godhead – a “Quadrinity” he calls it – that nothing in all of Roman Catholic faith or practise would change. Either he is grossly ignorant of the actual practise of the Church, or this is simply inflated rhetoric. I cannot imagine him to be so ignorant of Catholic worship on this matter, so I will assume that it is just rhetoric. And as a rhetorical device, it conveys that he thinks that we honour Mary too much, and that is understandable from his perspective, but for those who actually are ignorant of Catholic practise, there are some things they ought to know.

The Mass, which is the highest form of worship for Catholic Christians, has only one object: the Holy Trinity. In the Novus Ordo Missæ, Mary is mentioned only twice: in the Confiteor (along with a list of other saints and apostles) and in the Nicene Creed. Surely nobody could object to those things. Even in the Traditional Latin Mass, Mary is mentioned only six times, once in the Nicene Creed, and all other five times she is listed with groups of other saints. She is absent from the Roman Canon, absent from any invocation of the Holy Trinity, and absent from the Eucharistic liturgy altogether.

So to say that nothing would change if she were part of the “Quadrinity” is utter nonsense. It would change so much of the Catholic practise that I cannot even imagine where to start. Even the Rosary would have to change since no longer would we be asking for Mary’s intercessions, but rather praying the “Our Mother”.

His claim is that Catholics worship Mary, and in a sense this is absolutely correct. There is a sense in which it is not correct, but that does not take away from the fact that there is a sense in which it is. The word worship means simply to render to that which is worthy. King David was worshipped by one of his subjects in this passage from the Bible:

And going out he worshipped the king, bowing with his face to the earth, and said: Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant? And David said to him: To buy the thrashing floor of thee, and build an altar to the Lord, that the plague, which rageth among the people, may cease. (II Kings XXIV:xxi)

Are we to understand that this man idolised David or merely that he rendered the honour which was due to him? Clearly the latter is the case. The virtuous woman is to be praised (Proverbs XXXI:xxx), and what woman on earth possessed as much virtue as the Mother of God? Is it not fitting then, to worship her the same way that Gabriel did when he saw her and called her blessed amongst women?

Something here ought to be said about the Protestant’s understanding of worship. A Protestant accuses a Catholic of idolatry because we honour Mary in the same way that they honour God. Why is this? It is because for the Protestant, his highest form of worship involves sitting on his posterior for two hours whilst a man takes centre stage, and talks about his views of the Bible for seventy-five minutes, followed by a song or two and maybe the passing of a collection plate. And that is it. The Protestant will have no problem telling you that he has no altar, no sacrifice, no incense, no nothing. Just a long time of listening to a man in a business suit talk about his opinions. And that is their highest form of worship.

Since we might honour Mary with things slightly more glorious and substantially less boring than that, we are accused of idolatry. But the Mass, the highest form of Catholic worship, is reserved for God alone, and for nobody else. And it is a sacrifice on an altar to the Most High God – if anyone dared to do this for Mary, he would be rightly accused of idolatry. But has any Catholic ever done this? Ever? Not to my knowledge. Based on the anecdote provided, I see no idolatry, only devotion and love.

Take a moment and look at a common way of honouring men in our culture. Suppose a man serves for fifty years as a distinguished professor at a prestigious academic institution, and upon his retirement, his fellows throw a grand ball in his honour. One might imagine a time of socialisation in the main hall, followed by the singing of the Alma Mater, a few short speeches by his closest colleagues, a long keynote address, a time for a collection to his charitable foundation, and ending with a round of “For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow”. And all of this would be entirely appropriate for a man of great accomplishments. And it differs little – if it indeed differs at all – from the Protestant concept of worship.

So Rev. Schlissel has been to a May Crowning. What sacrifice was given to Mary? None at all. Was she blessed and praised for her virtue? I should hope so, as that would be a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Yet, notice the flurry of criticism even when she is honoured as the Bible says that she should be honoured. From whence does this irrational hatred of our Mother come?

So whilst he is shaking his head wondering where we Romanists get off honouring the Blessed Mother, we shake our own heads at the myriad displays of ahistorical belief and practise within the Protestant sects.

Finally, regarding the Salve Regina, one of his commentators said that the prayer was Christocentric. To which he replied, “However, the veracity of your own claim about the Christocentric nature of the Salve Regina is doubted. In support, I will simply include the English translation in which Christ is incidental and at best an indirect object.”

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,

our life, our sweetness and our hope.

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;

to thee do we send up our sighs,

mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

 

Turn then, most gracious advocate,

thine eyes of mercy toward us;

and after this our exile,

show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

 

V: Pray for us O holy Mother of God,

R: that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Actually, the indirect object of the central petition of the Salve Regina is the faithful, whilst the direct object is Christ: “[Mary, subject] Show unto us [the faithful, indirect object] the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus [direct object].” The prayer is highly Christocentric. The entire purpose for Marian devotion is summed up beautifully in this wonderful hymn: we follow Mary so that we may be led to Christ, just as St. Paul said to the church in Corinth: “Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.” He followed Christ, and he hoped that others would follow Him to reach the same goal. Is it such a stretch to see that our Blessed Mother, like all mothers, functions to lead her children to Jesus?

 Posted 6/3/2008 6:19 PM - 1657 views - 85 comments

Give eProps or Post a Comment

85 Comments

browse comments: next › | last »


Visit mr_jargon's Xanga Site!
It works both ways. Just as those in certain Protestant circles will see various traditional practices as idolatrous, those used to traditional liturgical worship will have trouble seeing the "worship" element in Protestant services, but I mean, if people just want to sing a couple happy songs and hear a lecture, what is that to me? It's sad that the Baal-worshippers in Scripture are more serious about their expressing their devotion than the Protestants are.
Posted 6/3/2008 7:00 PM by mr_jargon - reply

Visit blessed_saint_catherine's Xanga Site!
A beautiful post, Dave! I think it is remarkably tactful and respectful as well, considering the circumstances. Bravo!
Posted 6/3/2008 8:56 PM by blessed_saint_catherine - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!
You are far more gracious than I, Dave. I applaud you for that. Your arguments were sound, your criticisms were excellent, your analogies were effective, and your tone was as respectful as it was strong. It was excellent all around.

Your comparison of Protestant services and worship to that of a grand ball is a keeper. I promise to steal it from you in the future... but with journalistic integrity I will make sure to provide attribution. :)

Pax vobiscum!
Posted 6/4/2008 12:23 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit ContemplataTradere's Xanga Site!

Good post. Have you read "True Devotion to Mary" by St. Louis de Montfort? I think it is one of the most concise explanations of Marian belief I've read. Suitable to give to a skeptical inquirer.

I just sent my suffragan Bishop a long email this week telling him about my ongoing conversion, as I'm to be inducted as Lay Reader publicly in July. Basically I'm a flaming Tridentine Catholic, full of Mediaeval ideals and piety, on a journey 'To Jesus through Mary'....and a few thousand other words... His reply was "You're right on". :)

Concede, misericors Deus, fragilitate nostrae Praesidium; ut qui sanctae Dei Genitricis memoriam agimus, intercessionis eius auxilio a nostris iniquitatibus resurgamus. Amen.

Posted 6/4/2008 6:52 AM by ContemplataTradere - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!

@ContemplataTradere - 

Personally, I wouldn't give True Devotion (de Montfort) or Glories of Mary (Alphonsus) to non-Catholics or even weak Catholics. St. Louis gives the conditions for reading it or even talking about it in Conditions 1 and 2 in his Introduction of Secrets of Mary, the predecessor of True Devotion. If he said that for the far more condensed version of True Devotion, how much more the final product?

This is just my personal opinion. I could be wrong, and wouldn't fear granting as much were I to be shown why. I think it only prudent to give outsiders and newcomers a more solid foundation as to our teachings pertaining to Our Lady before placing in their hands the most unabashedly Marian book in the Catholic library. As I said, just an opinion. Not meant to be critical.
Posted 6/4/2008 8:55 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit chad_toney's Xanga Site!
Good post!

Mary is also mentioned at least once in each of the Eucharistic Prayers of the N.O.
Posted 6/4/2008 10:10 AM by chad_toney - reply

Visit JMHardens060703's Xanga Site!
Dave, this is brilliant.  I wondered if I might have your permission to send a copy of this to a protestant friend of mine (we discussed Mary once, but the references he made about her made me sick to my stomach, literally).  He's married to a Catholic friend of mine and has been given enough grace to concede to raising the children Catholic, but Mary and the Eucharist are his biggest hang-ups about the Chruch.  I think the way you so excellently stated all of this might help correct his erroneous and blasphemous views on Our Lady.
Posted 6/4/2008 10:18 AM by JMHardens060703 Xanga True Member - reply

Visit Servitus's Xanga Site!
Beautiful job, Dave, and very charitable as well.  Let us pray for our non-Catholic relatives and friends, that they may come to see the truth about the Mother of God, our Holy Mother in Heaven.
Posted 6/4/2008 10:22 AM by Servitus - reply

Visit MysteriumFidei's Xanga Site!

@ContemplataTradere - "Have you read "True Devotion to Mary" by St. Louis de Montfort?"

No, but I do own it. As soon as I finish the current ascetic work of Liguori's that I currently reading, I will read it.

@chad_toney - 

Thanks Chad, and good catch! I wasn't used to hearing her name there, but now that I think about it, I remember a Mexican Marist who would always include the same litany of saints in the Eucharistic prayer, and of course Mary was one of them.

@JMHardens060703 - 

By all means give it to whomever you like.

Posted 6/4/2008 10:37 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

Visit craigbrann's Xanga Site!
A reasonable post, Bro.

I cannot give the same praise as our mutual acquaintance, Jer the Paleocrat, etc., but was heartened to see his humble use of your post as a mirror showing less temperate aspects of his own. There is hope, yet.

I do want to make a formal, public apology for the GRAMMATICAL error you have sited and righteously corrected. However, you should have simply admitted that the hymn is simply Maria-centric. Fair enough. There are FAR MORE Christo-centric hymns out there, this does not make the top 100, (perhaps 1000 we have a lot of music). It is only a defensive reply that feels that this hymn ought to be asserted as 'very' or 'quite' Christo-centric. I truly appreciate the grammatical reductio, it was a thoughtless mistake, but if this is to be impartially numbered among the 'very Christo-centric hymns', then all hymns are Christocentric, and thus none 'very'.

Insofar as your caricature of Protestant Worship- note that you have committed the very fallacy you have sought to illustrate about Schlissel's post. You have taken a practice and are either "grossly ignorant of the actual practise of the Church, or this is simply inflated rhetoric." I think you are familiar with the Continental Form and Order of Worship so I will refrain from a pedantic, play-by-play breakdown thereof, as though you need it. Interestingly enough, the Mass is a cherished liturgy of Rev. Schlissel's - I have only heard him rave about the obvious appropriateness of every element. We attend, he far more often than myself, at the Hospital often. Upon the Priest's retiring to his office, we retire to the Protestant Chaplain's Office and hear the much more lively attended Rosary through the door. In these moments, Rev. Schlissel has, without fail, sat back in his chair full of wonder and sincerity said, "A perfect service. The Mass is a perfect service..."
It should also be noted that -were all devotional pronouns changed to masculine, and nearly all references to Mary contextually appropriated to Christ, and a handful of other slight changes, if any- the Coronation is actually aesthetically identical to a Protestant Worship Service. And isn't this the rub of the whole matter? The equivocation of 'worship' terminology, whether by Protestants who do not recognize the bifurcation of Devotion and Sacrifice or by Romanists who do not recognize the inseparability of the former from the latter (as evidenced in the equivocative exegesis of the ii Kings text above).

Another point where you appear reflective of Schlissel is in the not-actually-mentioned condemnation as schismatic those who disagree with you. I thankfully do not see any bold print references to Protestants (like Schlissel) being Idolaters in your post. However, if I were to follow your line of reasoning regarding our Worship and certainly Sacrifice (for without it on your terms, what are we?), I think I can smell a fragrantly incensed sub-text offered freely and sweetly to any RC paradigmatic within its waft.

Other than these finer points, a reasonable post.
Posted 6/4/2008 1:19 PM by craigbrann - reply

For someone frustrated with the lack of Mary in Catholic devotion, criticism that Catholics value her too highly seems rather hollow.

Marian devotion has a distinct direction--Her Son. Christic devotion has a distinct direction--Himself. It is for this reason that the Hail Holy Queen (and indeed the whole Rosary) is Christocentric: like Mary herself, Marian devotion has a direction. Indeed, it seems to me that too strong an objection to Mary--Christ without His mother--is an objection to the Incarnation.

Matt
Posted 6/4/2008 2:05 PM by Matthew N. Petersen (site) - reply

Visit axslinger42's Xanga Site!
Very good post Dave.

There was a thread over at reformedcatholicism about your father in law's post that was generating some interesting discussion, though there seems to be a bug in the thread at present.

At any rate, I was on track to bring up the sacrifice/praise distinction in the diverging views on worship when things got sidetracked. I'm glad you hit that here. That really is a crucial distinction.
Posted 6/4/2008 2:27 PM by axslinger42 - reply

Visit ContemplataTradere's Xanga Site!

Paleocrat etc,

I see Mary as the avenue into Catholicism, the gateway if you will. If you try and ram a load of intellectual dogma down someone's throat, you will just drive them away. If you can get them to fall in love, then you're already finished, and the journey is easy.  True Devotion does an excellent job of explaining the fundamental basis of Mary's place in the economy of grace. It is the best and clearest thing I've read.  Of course, I read it as an already practicing Catholic.

It's all about falling in love and staying that way.

Posted 6/4/2008 2:34 PM by ContemplataTradere - reply

Visit PistachioChocolateWife's Xanga Site!
It should also be noted that -were all devotional pronouns changed to masculine, and nearly all references to Mary contextually appropriated to Christ, and a handful of other slight changes, if any- the Coronation is actually aesthetically identical to a Protestant Worship Service.

Absolutely, and so are many of the prayers to Mary as well. It horrified me just as much as it does you, when I was in Catholic high school. "How could these people not hear themselves? They are praying to Mary the same words I could use to pray to Christ Himself." Thinking of the Memorare in particular. "Never was it known that anyone who fled to you for help... was left unaided... in your mercy hear and answer me." If not for the "Mary" in the prayer, it could have been something I as a Protestant prayed to Christ.

For now let me respond, why is that fact problematic? For instance, there are a million and one love songs on the radio that one could, with very little changing of the lyrics, turn into a most devotional prayer to Christ. Does that make it less true of the person you are singing a love ballad about? I submit that you'd have to give up too much of the stuff of your normal, daily life if you really wanted to create unique applications out of anything that could possibly apply to Jesus or God. Think about it.
Posted 6/4/2008 4:13 PM by PistachioChocolateWife - reply

Visit craigbrann's Xanga Site!

@PistachioChocolateWife - 

You keep doing this, Sa! I was not talking about it being problematic for its devotion to Mary. It was, and remains, Dave's problem that he has made a caricature of Protestant worship (which he understands very well to not be Sacrificial, but Devotional in paradigmatically Catholic terms), while the very service being defended is, in its aesthetic, indiscernible from a Protestant service. And this May Crowning being aesthetically indiscernible from a Protestant service means sadly that the Baal-worshippers in Scripture are more serious about their expressing their devotion than the Catholics are.

It may take years before we agree what we are disagreeing about, but this analogy about pop songs is perfect for one paradigmatically Catholic. But that ain't me. And because it does not address my paradigm, it presupposes an equivocation. Thus, it becomes a Faulty Analogy (useful for any elementary school logic intro).
Posted 6/4/2008 7:21 PM by craigbrann - reply

Visit PistachioChocolateWife's Xanga Site!

@craigbrann - 



Craig, I still really don't see how you didn't just prove Dave's point. I am having a lot of trouble understanding what you are even getting at. Each new response of yours leaves me more confused. Let me break it down how I see it and you point out where you see it differently.

The service you saw, other than the Maryness, could have been a Protestant service.
Therefore, we Catholics give Mary the same devotion you all give Christ.
Protestants might use this to mean that we honor Mary the same as God.
Catholics would use this to show that Protestants don't even attain to the heights of worship that we do, and therefore even your best is only as good as our second best.

"And this May Crowning being aesthetically indiscernible from a Protestant service means sadly that the Baal-worshippers in Scripture are more serious about their expressing their devotion than the Catholics are."

That is not true, simply because if it was a Mass, then there was a sacrifice. Aesthetics is not all there is to this picture. You would not even claim to have a sacrifice, whether it was aesthetically like unto the Baal altars or closer to the Catholic mass. So it still counts as higher worship, whatever it looks like.

It may take years before we agree what we are disagreeing about, but this analogy about pop songs is perfect for one paradigmatically Catholic. But that ain't me. And because it does not address my paradigm, it presupposes an equivocation. Thus, it becomes a Faulty Analogy (useful for any elementary school logic intro).

My analogy was not intended to win you over to the side of Mary worship; only to prove that our own side is INTERNALLY CONSISTENT. ("I don't agree, but I see how you got there.") So as I see it, if you grant our point that Protestant worship of Christ looks a lot like Catholic worship of Mary, if you admit that we believe we have a sacrifice (latria) that is due to and rendered to God alone, above and beyond devotion to her, then I believe my job here is done. Because at that point, our view, though you may disagree with it, is internally consistent.

Aha... Then to hurl at that internally consistent view critiques from a Protestant paradigm (such as sola scriptura), as my dad Pastor Schlissel does in his post referenced above, is to do exactly what you accuse us of doing in the comment above: to wit, not addressing my paradigm, thus presupposing an equivocation, therefore becoming a faulty analogy. So... backatcha buddy!!

I never would even dare to hope (only pray) that we would agree on the subject matter. I would be satisfied simply to clear out the cobwebs and make sure we each KNOW what we are disagreeing about, exactly. Move it to actuals and not mistaken assumptions. A reasonable goal? Help me out, then.
Posted 6/4/2008 9:22 PM by PistachioChocolateWife - reply

Visit Paleocrat_etc's Xanga Site!

@ContemplataTradere - 

Mary may certainly be an avenue, but only one of many. For some it is its 2,000 year history. Others may be drawn by the doctrinal and ecclesiastical unity. Count me in with both of the aforementioned. As a Protestant, Mary was the last thing standing between me and the Church. As far as I was concerned, she wasn't an avenue, she was a roadblock. It wasn't until I had submitted to the Church's hermeneutic, tradition, and teaching authority that I began more fully embracing those doctrines and devotions that once caused great concern and reservation.

Admittedly, I am just one case. I know that there are others who are drawn to the faith because of our love of Christ's mother. For this reason, I would never say that we should avoid talking about these matters with who St. Louis de Montfort refers to as the "uninitiated." Still, I think it is safe to side with caution, the kind encouraged by St. Louis in his book Secret of Mary.

Pax vobiscum
Posted 6/5/2008 9:03 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

Visit craigbrann's Xanga Site!

@PistachioChocolateWife - 


Believe it or not, I think we are finally getting somewhere.
Your breakdown is paradigmatically Catholic and essentially consistent.
Good job. (I would only stress the Catholic use of 'devotion' particularly, and not expect a Protestant to agree)

While I understand your wanting to take issue with there being more to a service than Aesthetics, I was actually narrowing the field for the very reason you felt the need to re-open it. This is essentially a non-issue to me, excepting the caricature paradigmatically Catholic's make of paradigmatically Protestant worship.

Paragraph One following Faulty Analogy: Great.
Paragraph two, bringing SMS back into purview, understandable emotionally, but I believe not a straight-reading of his (however poorly composed) public post. It is pretty rare that Sola Scriptura plays any role in your Old Man's exegesis and I think he actually was trying to address the exegesis of passages (without really caring what extra-scriptural references may be used). As I have mentioned before, but he didn't because it is such a basic presup of reading the passage, he was thinking about the Jews the whole time. (As he ALWAYS is) So my reading of your comment here is the same- you did it again.

BTW, I love you, too.
Posted 6/5/2008 11:22 AM by craigbrann - reply

Visit MysteriumFidei's Xanga Site!

@craigbrann - 

I think it should be said for the benefit of all here present that Craig and I - when given the opportunity - are prone to wail on our respective axes for hours on end, drink good tequila together, and otherwise enjoy the good life in the stateliest borough of New York. So lest anybody think that we're anything but the best buddies, there's something in which to put in your proverbial pipe for smoking.
Posted 6/5/2008 11:37 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

Visit PistachioChocolateWife's Xanga Site!

@MysteriumFidei - 



I think everyone's staying pretty nice in this particular convo... no?
Posted 6/5/2008 12:24 PM by PistachioChocolateWife - reply

Visit MysteriumFidei's Xanga Site!

@PistachioChocolateWife - 

More or less. This is a sensitive subject and discussing it with close family just makes me nervous. I guess it's there partially to remind me specifically since I am apt to speak rashly before thinking.
Posted 6/5/2008 12:28 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

Visit PistachioChocolateWife's Xanga Site!

@craigbrann - 




Even though I can understand how SMS's end game was a look at how (what he considers) faulty exegesis of a passage which (he believes) speaks of Israel can lead to (what he believes to be) a wrong and potentially dangerous attitude toward the Jews (let me know if I got that right), he is still employing some version of sola scriptura to attempt to topple a Catholic exegesis. Maybe not the me-and-my-Bible-that-dropped-out-of-the-sky kind, but certainly the kind where a reasonable person, without the aid of extrabiblical Tradition or a ruling body that guides interpretation, can come to an accurate conclusion about the meaning of an allegorical style passage.

I highly doubt that priest at the May Crowning was attempting to "prove" -- in the protestant "let me show you a verse" sense -- that those passages were the end-all and basis for the Church's teachings about our Blessed Mother. I have never heard any Catholic claim that the teachings about Mary were based on the Bible... only that they could be supported by Scripture, and were not contrary to Scripture. But certainly not self-contained in Sacred Scripture! It's heavy on Tradition and heavy on interpretation.

If a person wishes to critique an internally consistent belief, as I believe our position to be, and you have not disagreed, it is necessary to either find a point of common ground upon which to base the critique, or else critique the paradigmatic differences first. Or, of course, go inside the paradigm and show how it is INconsistent.

Failure to do one of these things, by using one's own paradigm to indicate that someone else's is wrong (back to the FV controversy arguments!), is apples to oranges and does nothing more than as you said earlier, prove that SMS is not Catholic. Not wishing to believe there was intellectual dishonesty going on here, I belabored the paradigm aspect. If that is something you all are well aware of, then I would ask for more careful attention to words and arguments used, and to assumptions made (unqualified rhetoric is fine and dandy when preaching to throngs of adoring fans, but can be dangerous when blasted to a mixed audience on the WWW). "It's not because it's not" is as you know a tautology. Let's not beg the questions that we are trying to prove.

Not to comply with that request, and then to insist everyone read one's own rantings through the lens of "Tough Brooklyn Jew Who Is Allowed To Be Hyperbolic and Inaccurate Just Because That's My Style" is, well, pretty inconsiderate, and makes one look bad.
Posted 6/5/2008 1:19 PM by PistachioChocolateWife - reply

Dave,

I think this is a good post, though we'd probably want to eventually get into the various meaning of "worship." Not that I'm gonna be able to do that here, but that's probably where the real disagreement starts.

One correction, you have cited 2 Kings 24:21 as an example of worshiping the king. Did you mean 2 Samuel instead?
Posted 6/5/2008 3:04 PM by Steven W (site) - reply

Visit MysteriumFidei's Xanga Site!

@Steven W - 

The various meanings of worship are indeed central to the discussion. If all worship is the same, then we shouldn't praise virtuous women because that would be like praising God. But that notion is contrary to the Scriptures.

As for the reference, II Kings in the Catholic Bible is II Samuel in the Protestant Bible. For us, there are four books of Kings and two books of the Chronicles.
Posted 6/5/2008 3:30 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

Visit Pronomian's Xanga Site!
If the Inquisition had just been given a little more time, perhaps the last five hundred years wouldn't have been.

Oh, if!
Posted 6/6/2008 3:09 PM by Pronomian - reply

browse comments: next › | last »


Choose Identity
(?)
 
Give eProps (?)
Post a Comment
Add Link | Preview HTML comment help 
Profile Pic:
Default  |  Choose »  (?)



Back to MysteriumFidei's Xanga Site!
Note: your comment will appear in MysteriumFidei's local time zone:
GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)