ANYONE BUT BUSH IN 2004
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Original: 8/13/2004 11:47 AM
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Friday, August 13, 2004
 

"Since 2001, President Bush's tax cuts have shifted federal tax payments from the richest Americans to a wide swath of middle-class families, the Congressional Budget Office [emphasis mine] has found, a conclusion likely to roil the presidential election campaign." (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5689001/)

 Posted 8/13/2004 11:47 AM - 35 comments

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Visit thenarrator's Xanga Site!
Well, obviously. And Americans are getting fewer services at the same time. Of course news like this simply encourages Republican donors, who'd much rather pay for Republican campaigns than pay the same money in taxes that might help society in general.
Posted 8/13/2004 12:05 PM by thenarrator - reply

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Of course, there are several questions about Kerry that woul roil the election if the media ever cared to report on them.

Claims of no bias are simply laughable when you compare the media investigation of Bush's Guard service to media's coverage of Kerry's Vietnam service.

Posted 8/13/2004 4:19 PM by thatliberalmedia - reply

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Bush is a jackass, i hate him.  I really like your site.  it's quality

Posted 8/13/2004 5:46 PM by AllEyezOnV - reply

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I'd like to remind thatliberalmedia, that he, like Bush, views himself as too good for war. At least Kerry got off his ass and did something during Vietnam, other than work on war-supporter campaings. Of course, Kerry opposed the war in the end, and generally opposes war now, which is ironic to me, because the people who actually serve and come back to lead us generally oppose the war, while people who view themselves as too good to serve are for wars.

Also, what are some of those questions that could be devastating to Kerry? Go ahead, quesxtion his service, and be a hypocrite, because your candidate has none.
Posted 8/13/2004 6:28 PM by neverworld Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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Notice thatliberalmedia chooses not to argue the issue here, but try, in McCarthyesque form, to shift the argument to something irrelevant. Fact: Bush tax "cuts" have shifted the tax burden to the middle class. Classic Right-Wing Response: "Gays! Hippies!"
Posted 8/13/2004 6:31 PM by thenarrator - reply

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Seeing as how middle class (me, believe or not, since I have become so very rich on here) makes up the majority of the United States, wouldn't it be expected that they make up most of the tax payments?

Or maybe only little boys like me have enough time to comment on Xanga sites. Perhaps he's making good use of himself.

Here's a question that I think Kerry couldn't answer too well: "You plan to get the UN involved in Iraq. HOW??"

Posted 8/13/2004 7:06 PM by weezerbaby - reply

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Weezerbaby, your family makes over $300,000 each year. Your parents are both lawyers, and you belive that you are MIDDLE class? Even I admit that I'm on the edge of UPPER class with less than 1/3rd the money your family has. By the way, the median income in the US is $40,000 each year (according to IRS). So don't try to tell me that you make nearly 10 times as much as the median income and are still "middle class". You claim to be in the top 2% of wage earners, but still middle class. You are a liar, and a bad one at that.

Kerry plans to get the UN in Iraq by actually admitting that it was a mistake to go in there. Kerry says he thinks that his vote was right, but the president didn't handle it correctly. Kerry expected a multinational force to go into Iraq, not the US and anyone who is either a great ally to it (Britain) or it pays (Poland, I believe, and no other countries have a significant amount of troops in Iraq).

Back to the issue at hand. Believe it or not, weezerbaby, while the middle class may have the most people (and this is something I'm not sure on, the lower class may beat it, as half of all wage earners earn less than $40,000 per year, something that is incredibly hard to live on in California, especially where I live, yet I know people that manage to do it), the upper class by far has the vast majority of the money. And unlike when Bush said "by far the vast majority of my tax cuts go to those at the bottom", I actually mean it when I say "by far" and "vast majority".
Posted 8/13/2004 10:26 PM by neverworld Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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"You claim to be in the top 2% of wage earners" -neverworld

Where did I say this?

"You are a liar, and a bad one at that." -neverworld

How can I lie about an undefined term? Or am I wrong? Is there a written out class structure according to income?

Define middle class and I will tell you if we're there. I live in a completely middle class neighborhood, attend a normal public school, wear the oldest fashions and have sister whose about to go to college, yet I have been told, that our Fall Break Trip has been cancelled so we were sure there woul be no problem in sending her. Am I liar? You don't know that, but I can tell you I'm not. For the record it doesn't matter if my entire family is filled with MIT graduates in the field of biological chemistry (oil), if they don't work, the money isn't there. My mom doesn't work, therefore her title doesn't matter.

After taxing has taken it's toll, what is rich, neverworld?

Posted 8/14/2004 12:05 AM by weezerbaby - reply

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Well weezerbaby, "middle" cannot logically include the upper 2%. Americans are "taught" that being "upper" or "lower" class are a bad thing by popular culture, so everyone pretends to be middle. But what if middle included the "middle 50% of the population" (25% above, 25% below) Then "Middle Class" would stretch from about $25,000 annually to about $100,000 annually. If we went by amount, say, 1/3 Median to 3 times median, "Middle Class" would stretch from the poverty line to $120,000. You are the one stating your parents earn over $300,000 in a state with no income tax. Obviously that is rich. Very rich. If they can't afford almost anything, it means they are terrible with money and need an accountant to take care of them. Even if you were right. Even if they only earned $300,000 and paid "60%" of their income in taxes (again, impossible unless they are idiots), then they would have TRIPLE the National Median Gross Income in Net Income. If they paid CASH for your sister to go to the most expensive college (say, Northwestern), they's still end up with far more than 150% of the median national gross income left over. So, if your income claims are true, and this statement is true: "I live in a completely middle class neighborhood, attend a normal public school, wear the oldest fashions and have sister whose about to go to college, yet I have been told, that our Fall Break Trip has been cancelled so we were sure there woul be no problem in sending her. Am I liar?" You are either a liar, or your parents are the worst people in the USA with money outside of Mike Tyson, or, Yes, you are a liar.

Again, you really need to go down to your "middle class" public library and read a tax table.
Posted 8/14/2004 4:02 AM by thenarrator - reply

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I want to mention that if someone was taxed 60% of the their income, it DEFINITELY wouldn't be a middle class citizen.  As a REAL middle class citizen (parents combined income of around 90,000, probably less), I am not discouraged from becoming rich b/c of our tax system.  I have yet to meet a poor person that is discouraged from becoming rich because of our current income tax policy.  LOL  Just b/c you live in a middle class neighborhood and all that stuff, doesn't mean you're middle class Weezer.  A friend of mine lives in my hometown which is mostly comprised of lower-middle class people, but her parents also own three gas stations, a hardware store, and an oil company.
Posted 8/14/2004 6:59 PM by backthatbillup - reply

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thenarrator makes a good point about my post, when I have time to glance thru the CBO, I will comment.

Posted 8/14/2004 7:54 PM by thatliberalmedia - reply

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a quote from the same article:

"In contrast, the middle 20 percent of taxpayers -- whose incomes averaged $51,500 in 2001 -- saw their tax rates drop 9.3 percent. The poorest taxpayers saw their taxes fall 16 percent.

"Republican aides on Capitol Hill, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the tax cuts actually made federal income taxes -- as opposed to total taxes -- more equitable.

"They point to a different set of numbers within the CBO study that show that the rich are actually paying more in individual federal income taxes. If Social Security, Medicare and other federal levies are excluded, the rich are paying a higher share of income taxes this year than they would have paid with no tax changes, the CBO found. If none of the tax cuts had passed, the top 20 percent would pay 78.4 percent of income taxes this year. Instead, they will pay 82.1 percent. In contrast, the middle-class share of income taxes dropped to 5.4 percent, from 6.4 percent if no tax cuts had passed.

"'Are the rich paying their fair share?' asked one GOP aide. 'Yeah. They're paying more.'"

clearly you can spin the report whichever way you want.

Posted 8/15/2004 1:06 AM by justjack4859 - reply

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Well you can, but it's the worst lie. You can only exclude Social Security tax (FICA) if it was actually going to Social Security. Right now only about 40% goes to that, the rest to a federal budget in deficit at a $445 BILLION a year rate. FICA is no individual savings program, it is how the Federal Government is financed.
Posted 8/15/2004 3:15 AM by thenarrator - reply

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The quote for weezerbaby: "The study found that the effective tax rate for the top 1 percent of taxpayers dropped from 33 percent in 2001 to 26.7 percent this year, a decline of 19 percent."

And keep in mind, as Republicans lie their way through the Sunday talk shows, the facts about FICA: 7-1/2% off the top, no deductions, and your employer has to match that. Of course you pay 7-1/2%. Someone making $200,000 a year pays 3.3%, At $300,000 a year the rate is 2.2%, if you make a million, it's POINT 65 of a percent. And of course there is no "Social Security Trust Fund" this goes into. All that money flows directly into the Federal Budget, which this year still came up $445 BILLION short. Only a Republican could deny that money the government takes right out of your check, based on your income, is not an income tax.

It's important to know this fact, because it is this lie that causes Republicans to make their big lie, that the rich pay all the taxes.
Posted 8/15/2004 8:17 AM by thenarrator - reply

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As far as I can tell, the media has made a huge deal about the Kerry war-record. CNN's coverage of swift boat vets against Kerry has been completely out of sync with even the Bush administration's attention. From interviews to side referrences, CNN at least has been slipping the story in about twice an hour. Hell, Bush even disagrees with the SBV's - he said on Larry King that, "Kerry has a right to be proud of his war record."

I work in the media, and I am surrounded by CNN 24/7. You're just plain wrong on this particular count, thatliberalmedia. I'm an eyewitness to that.

Posted 8/15/2004 6:25 PM by Fleigende_Hollander - reply

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I just wanted to say that I oppose tax cuts at the current time.  We are at a time of war, when huge deficits (which are in fact bad) occur.  Therefore, we shouldn't cut taxes to create a larger deficit, and if we do we shouldn't cut them for a small group of people.
Posted 8/15/2004 10:05 PM by backthatbillup - reply

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On a different, but related topic,

Can anyone confirm or deny the rumor that Bush is thinking about getting rid of income tax entirely, and is instead thinking of using a federal income tax?

(Yes, I do realize that this kind of tax would end up being a regressive income tax, taking a higher percentage from the poor, since they need to buy things like food and medicine, which WILL be taxed under Bush's new idea.)

Posted 8/16/2004 3:57 PM by mibu_wolf - reply

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Never heard of that rumor.

Like I said, flat tax rates have been confirmed by dozens of professionals that would leave Americans with more of their own money. Poor people don't have to remain poor. If the wealthy have the money to expand, more jobs are created and the poor slowly work their way up the ladder. There is no expansion, if the rich cannot fund this type of expansion.

Of course, some of the rich would just keep it. So what? If they were smart, they would use it to expand and actually become more rich while helping thousands of others. How does limiting expansion help the poor achieve?

Back to the flat tax rate, why not put a little heat on Congress to spend our (in 4 years me) more wisely?? Obviously, some things must be funded well, but we all know that Congress is very lackadaisical with the money they receive.

A terrific artical: http://www.jeffdoolittle.com/archives/000355.php

Posted 8/16/2004 6:16 PM by weezerbaby - reply

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For instance, if my dad had just a few thousand more a year, he said he would love to open a town skating rink, and possibly break off of his firm and make his own. Both of these create jobs for ALL levels of society.
Posted 8/16/2004 6:18 PM by weezerbaby - reply

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Weezerbaby wants more! Nothing like being among the richest and insisting how "you" could help the poor if only they gave more of their money to "you."

Government costs money. Is there waste? Of course. The kind of waste and lost generated by private enterprise? Rarely. Do we really want to run our government programs the way Enron was run? The way our major airlines have been run into the ground? Do you really want to run schools or the department of defense the way GM is run? (Oh, that school isn't profitable, close it and re-open one in Mexico where teachers cost less.)

But government costs. At all levels. And we have to pay for it. So the question is how. The answer, without question, is by progressive taxation. The more you earn, the higher percentage of your income should go to support the society that has allowed you to succeed. The benefits of this? Rich people don't need any incentive to succeed, they're holding on to what they want (you can hear weezerbaby's dad over dinner chanting "Top 2% isn't good enough for me!"). But it is in society's best interests to lift people out of poverty, to create entry-level jobs and allow people at the bottom to spend their money. And whhen poor people get money they build their community in dramatic ways. They don't go down to Fifth Avenue or North Michigan Avenue to shop, they don't go on vacations outside the country, they spend that money locally, often in stores in neighborhoods that need development, on housing in communities that need help. This gives more money to small businesses that recycle those funds through the community (and pay taxes because they're not headquartered in the Bahamas). Those small businesses grow and create jobs here, not in Malaysia. They build local lives, local communities. And, sure, the money does flow to the top eventually, so it isn't like the rich suffer at all.

The biggest boost this nation's economy could get would be from the "FICA Shift." Dropping FICA payments off the first $5,000 for both employee and employer, and replacing it by extending that 7-1/2% tax all the way up the income scale. Remember that right now if a company has an extra million dollars, and creates a million bucks worth of $50,000 jobs, they need to pay 7-1/2% on that money. If they hand they million to their executives as bonuses, they don't pay a dime extra. I'm sorry, but no one can convince me that 20 new $50,000 a year jobs isn't better for the economy than Michael Eisner getting an extra million, or ten guys like weezerbaby's father getting an extra hundred grand.
Posted 8/16/2004 7:48 PM by thenarrator - reply

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I didn't want to show you all this damn math... But I will since Weezer can't do it on his own...

(These are just general economic assumptions and not actual numbers: assume that change in taxes won't affect how much people make) 

current money earned by government from taxes:  $100 which comes from 20% income tax on poor and 40% income tax on rich.

If we put the flat tax rate to 20%, the government will be under the previous $100 since the rich are paying less money.

If we put the flat tax at 40%, the government will be over $100 since the poor are dishing out more money.

Therefore, in order for the government to match what is brining in now, they must go between the two figures.  Say they go to 30%.  This means the poor are being taxed more, the rich are being taxed less.

With the rich  being taxed less, it puts more money in their hands.  Since there are fewer rich than there are poor, we will have a smaller range of spending.  The rich would only purchase things that appeal to the rich.  This would destroy the financial well-being of the products that appeal to the poor (since they won't be purchased as often).

Screw flat-taxes.  Your claims are meaningless and have no logic Weezerbaby.

Posted 8/16/2004 10:59 PM by backthatbillup - reply

Visit thatliberalmedia's Xanga Site!

In response to the original post, Bush is trying to flatten the tax rate.  Obviously, this will lead to the rich paying a smaller percentage, and other classes paying larger percentages.

In response to fleigende_hollander commenting that he has heard the Kerry controversy being mentioned "At least twice an hour on CNN," some of those mentions being side references, as evidence it got comparable to coverage to Bush's AWOL story:  First of all, please read my last 3 or 4 posts on my xanga, esp the one on Aug. 12.  In addition, (and I may regret posting this here, as this would make a good post on my own page), I remembered one of the White House Press Briefings from February where the reporters sounded like a bunch of hyenas demanding the President prove he wasn't AWOL even after the White House had released his pay records. So I did a Google search and found the transcript (boy, I never thought I'd link to that!) from the press briefing. Here are the questions that were asked about the AWOL controversy (it is quite long but worth reading)

Those questions take up 37 minutes of a 45 minute press conference. The transcript shows the tenacity with which the press corp handled the AWOL controversy but it doesn't even begin to show the contempt some of the reporters displayed for McClellan and the President. You can watch the video from the transcript page also. The attitude and disrespect from some of the reporters is unbelievable.

Can you imagine the reporters following the Kerry campaign covering the Christmas in Cambodia story like this? Of course it would be nice if they covered it at all!

The press considered the AWOL story that was over 30 years old to be extremely important even though they had no evidence to prove Bush was AWOL. Also notice how there was no questions about the political motivations behind the AWOL accusations.

Compare that to the blackout about the Cambodia story even though there is now evidence to show the story was made up forcing the Kerry campaign to change the story. In this case all we see are stories attacking the motivations of the veterans making the accusations. Also remember that Bush did not campaign on his military service but Kerry has based his whole campaign on his 4 months in Vietnam.

What media bias?

Posted 8/16/2004 11:08 PM by thatliberalmedia - reply

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Also, in response to neverworld's post of 8/13 6:28PM:

Even if Kerry's Vietnam record is every bit as heroic as he presents it, the notion that this makes him fit to be president is ludicrous. The man spent four months in combat as a junior officer; he's not exactly Eisenhower. Besides, as a certain senator observed 12 years ago, when candidate Bill Clinton was under attack for having avoided the draft:

The race for the White House should be about leadership, and leadership requires that one help heal the wounds of Vietnam, not reopen them; that one help identify the positive things that we learned about ourselves and about our nation, not play to the divisions and differences of that crucible of our generation.

The man who said that, of course, was John Kerry. He would have better served the country--and he might have better served his own campaign--had he followed his advice this year.

Posted 8/16/2004 11:25 PM by thatliberalmedia - reply

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Did the democrats push for coverage on Bush's AWOL status or was it the media?  Isn't it the same media that is pushing about John Kerry's roles in Vietnam?

I believe I did hear President Bush disagree with the people that are talking about John Kerry's role in Vietnam.  I believe it was along the lines of "it's not right to go that way... Leave it alone".  The only thing I didn't like about Bush's AWOL status personally was he didn't really take a true stance on Vietnam.  He never came out and said that he supported it (by going over) or opposing it (by protesting or dodging).  It just seems to me that you shouldn't sign up and not go.

Posted 8/16/2004 11:49 PM by backthatbillup - reply

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I'm very confused about your post thatliberalmedia, because the quote says that he wants to talk about leadership skills that people learned from Vietnam.  I mean no offense to President Bush, but I don't see him showing any signs of leadership during his service during Vietnam.  I think if the democrats wanted to push the issue, they should have just said that John Kerry showed better signs of leadership during his service in Vietnam than George Bush did.  Just leave it at that.  I'm personally curious why Bush went AWOL, but I'm starting to see what John McCain was saying about closing the wounds...  But I"m curious thatliberalmedia, if the situation was opposite, would you be pushing for John Kerry's war record?

Posted 8/17/2004 10:31 AM by backthatbillup - reply

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