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Original: 2/2/2008 4:48 AM
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Saturday, February 02, 2008
 

The Words of Jesus?

In Response to a Question:

Posted 1/30/2008 3:50 PM by sonnetjoy – “Embedded throughout this post is language which suggests you do not believe that the words of Jesus are in the NT. (“One ancient writer depicts Jesus as saying,” and “Guess what else Jesus supposedly said” for example.) Have you written a post that addresses that? If so, could you point me to it?”

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It is true that I am forced to question whether the New Testament always faithfully reports the words of Jesus.  I have tried to type up a short explanation (but it's not so short).

It is important to admit that to be honest, I know of no one who actually knows what the historical Jesus said or did, assuming he did exist.   The following  may partially explain this:
  1. Jesus left no writings of his own. 
  2. Nothing extant was written about him during his lifetime.  
  3. No surviving contemporary historical or political documents recorded his existence, much less anything about him.
  4. For 20 years after his alleged death, no one wrote any surviving account of his life, words, or deeds.  That is despite the fact that people were writing about all kinds of things at that time in history.
  5. The earliest non-Christian sources to mention Jesus appear long after his alleged death (over 50 years for Josephus and 86 years for Tacitus).  They do not consider him to be anything good or to have been resurrected from the dead.  Josephus will be dealt with below in the section on fraudulent Christian textual modifications.
    • The Roman historian Tacitus wrote in his Annals (c. 116 CE) about 1st century events, but he certainly had nothing positive to say about Christianity.  The information he gives about “Christus” is not based on government documents or witnesses to any events; rather, he appears simply to follow general Christian claims of the time:
      • Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.”  (15.44)
  6. The earliest Christian sources, written presumably 50-60 CE (over 20 years after Jesus’ death), are some letters ascribed to Paul, a man who did not even know or claim to know Jesus when he was alive.  The letters of Paul contain almost no biographical information about Jesus.  In fact, the death and resurrection of the messiah seem to be almost all that Paul cares about, for theological reasons.  I should note, too, that not all letters attributed to Paul by tradition are currently believed by Biblical scholars to have actually been written by Paul.  Christians were in the habit of inventing literature for their movement.  Some pseudepigraphic literature made it into the New Testament (like the “Pastoral Epistles”: 1, 2 Timothy and Titus) whereas other pseudepigraphic literature did not (like some pretended correspondence between the Apostle Paul and the philosopher Seneca).  More below.
  7. When Christian writings do appear, they are over 20 years after Jesus’ death, and they come from various communities that believed often quite different things about Jesus.
  8. The Gospel of Thomas (not in the New Testament) may have been written before or after the Mark, Matthew, and Luke.  Scholars differ in their opinions.  It is a collection of sayings, some of which may have been said by a historical Jesus.
  9. The first biblical gospel known to exist, attributed to Mark, was not written until c.69-75 CE, over 40 years after the death of Jesus.  It shows knowledge of the Jewish war and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, with the author even inserting an editorial comment, “Let the reader understand” (13:14), when putting events of the war into the mouth of Jesus as alleged prophesies (a relatively common thing for ancient writers to do in support of their cause).  The writer was not a witness of the events, nor did he claim to be.  The original ending either stopped at 16:8 or was removed on purpose.  A different anonymous Christian author added 16:9-20.  There is no suggestion that Jesus was born of a virgin, and not many teachings of Jesus are mentioned.
  10. “Matthew” comes later (80-90 CE), and “Luke” after that (90-100).  Neither was written by anyone who knew Jesus, and both rely on other sources.  Each one uses Mark to create a framework, but each one changes certain elements in a unique way.  Each invents a genealogy and a birth narrative for Jesus, but they differ on both counts.  [Luke’s genealogy even says that there were only 77 generations of humans from God to Jesus through Adam!! – a natural-but-false belief for someone who read Jewish mythology.]  Each adds many teachings of Jesus derived from a common unnamed source, called “Q” by historians.  By comparing Matthew and Luke, one can determine the subject matter of the Q source material, but it also becomes obvious that the authors are changing things, expanding their sources, and imagining what might have been said.  Matthew adds a "sermon on the mount"; Luke doesn't have it, but gives similar teachings in a "sermon on the plain."  Even more striking than the different fabricated genealogies and virgin birth stories is the fact that Matthew’s gospel puts Jesus’ resurrection appearances in Galilee, while Luke emphatically puts all post-resurrection events in Jerusalem (see Acts also).  The two are more than 100 miles apart!  Mark, the appendage to Mark (16:9-20), Matthew, and Luke have serious discrepancies about events of the resurrection [see my paper at  http://www.geocities.com/investigatingchristianity/ResurrectionDiscrep.html].  The original Mark placed resurrection appearances in Galilee (16:7), but whoever wrote 16:9-20 seems to have used something closer to the Lukan version.
  11. “John” came last, being written and rewritten from 96 CE onward (over 66 years after Jesus’ death).  It claims to have been inspired by writings from “the disciple whom Jesus loved,” who may have died before the writing of the extant book.  It is radically different. 
    • In the synoptic gospels (Mt, Mk, Lk), Jesus first goes to Jerusalem during the last week of his life, “passion week;” John, however, has Jesus visit Jerusalem earlier and more frequently.
    • The synoptic gospels do not have John’s seventh sign-miracle, the resurrection of Lazarus (John 11).
    • The synoptics do not have John’s extended “Farewell Discourse” (13-17).
    • In John, Jesus’ ministry lasts 3 or more years, while it only lasts for one year in the others.
    • In all three synoptic gospels the cleansing of the Jerusalem temple occurs just after Jesus’ triumphal entry into the city.  Mark even depicts Jesus’ behavior as the reason for the plot to kill him.  In the synoptics, Jesus dies within a week.  In John, Jesus cleanses the temple on his very first visit to Jerusalem, two years earlier.
    • The last supper is on a different day.  In John, the last supper is “before Passover” (13:1), and the crucifixion and burial occur on the day leading up to Passover, which itself was a Sabbath day (19:31).  In contrast, the synoptic gospels put the last supper on the first evening of Passover, a Thursday, and the crucifixion and burial are after the first evening of Passover.
    • John has none of the following:  the temptation of Jesus, the transfiguration, the institution of the Lord’s supper, examples of Jesus casting out demons, the "sermon on the mount," the "Lord’s prayer," narrative parables.
    • Jesus is God in John.  John begins by asserting that Jesus always existed, as the “logos” of God who became flesh.  John’s gospel portrays Jesus as God.  It contains several “I am” statements echoing Yahweh’s statement to Moses in Exodus 3:14.  It even has Thomas say to Jesus, “My lord and my God” (20:28).  John 14:9 depicts Jesus as saying, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."  Yet other Christian writers within the New Testament did not equate Jesus with God.  e.g. “God ... whom no one has seen or can see” (1 Tim 6:15-16).  By the time of John’s gospel, Jesus has evolved into an all-knowing character, whereas he seemed more human in earlier gospels. In Mark 13:32, Jesus is not omniscient, and says, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”  Matthew 24:36 says the same, in some manuscripts, but unknown Christians took the phrase "nor the Son" out of their manuscripts, attempting to change the text because it conflicted with their doctrine.   
  12. One may observe an evolution of beliefs about Jesus if one closely compares Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.  A good study tool for Christians and non-Christians is Burton H. Throckmorton’s Gospel Parallels, which sets accounts side-by-side, so that it is easier to compare and contrast the different gospels.  Some easier-to-spot differences:  In Mark, there is no virgin birth and Jesus seems more human; Matthew and Luke reflect communities that have added (different) genealogies and birth narratives; John depicts a pre-existent Jesus who is God.  One could examine how the different gospels treat Jesus’ baptism by John and the heavenly voice: small details change over time, increasing the authority of Jesus.  The omniscience of Jesus was already mentioned above.  There are too many examples to get more specific here.  Careful study reveals that the writers created or shaped sayings/stories in ways the reflect the experience of the community in which each gospel was written.
  13. The early Christians appear to have fabricated stories about Jesus in order to make him appear both to equal and to surpass the characters in Jewish mythology, both in word and deed.  For example, they make him walk on water and appear transfigured on a mountain; this makes him superior to Moses [also, the "sermon on the mount" (in Matthew) giving the new version of the commandments].  Matthew invented a story about Herod killing babies to try to prevent the birth of the coming king/prophet; this is an echo of the Moses story and numerous stories in Meopotamian, Greek, and Roman culture.  Gospel writers make him fast for 40 days and nights to match Moses and Elijah and even the Israelite sojourn described in the Pentateuch.  They make him raise the dead to match the feats of Elijah and Elisha.  Elijah and Elisha also create abundance from little, a feat topped by the literary Jesus, who feeds 4,000 or 5,000 with a small amount (like 5 loaves and 2 fishes [5+2=7] or with 12 baskets left over [notice the use of special numbers!]).  The whole "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth" thing (Mt 12:40) is symbolism from the Jonah story and more.  For more examples in better detail, see Randel Helms'  Gospel Fictions, (1988. Prometheus Books), which gives a short literary analysis.]  The stories also resemble elements of Greek and Roman mythology, which is probably not an accident.  Romulus, the founder of Rome, was the son of God (Mars) and himself became a God and ascended into heaven in a mist or cloud from one of the seven hills of Rome.  The ancient people, including Jews and Christians, thought god(s) lived in the sky; so such an ascension in a cloud made sense to them, whereas it seems strange to a modern ear.  Also, many Greek and Roman gods, demi-gods, and heroes were born of virgins.  Early Christianity also bears many resemblances to Greco-Roman mystery religions which promised initiates a blessed afterlife.  There are too many examples of borrowed literary, religious, and mythological features to list them all here.
  14. No people, not even Christians, claim that Jesus appeared to Roman authorities.  One might suppose that a real god who could rise from the dead and wanted the world to know "the truth" and worship him would appear and make himself known to the entire world.  Of course that's not how anything went.  The Christian stories are suspicious, conflicting, and unreliable.  If Saddam Hussein’s body or Elvis's body went missing and some Iraqis/Americans claimed that he had risen from the dead and that they saw him but that he then went into the sky, would you believe them?  Would you believe their stories of what Saddam/Elvis told his close disciples?  How about 40 years or more after the "fact"? 
  15. It is an demonstrable fact that Christians tampered with Biblical texts as time went on.  One need only purchase a Greek text of the Bible with a critical apparatus in it, showing the textual variations among surviving copies.  For a brief essay with some interesting examples, check out “Which Bible?” by Steven Carr (1997), which is available on-line both at http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/976which.html and also on my web page http://www.geocities.com/investigatingchristianity/index.html .  We have proof that variants exist, and although some variants may be accidents, it is a fact that Christians edited/'doctored' their texts.  Who knows how many cases of tampering and 'editing' went unnoticed?  I already gave the example of how Mark 13:32 says Jesus is not omniscient, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”  And some manuscripts of Matthew 24:36 say the same, but unknown Christians took that phrase "nor the Son" out of other manuscripts, because it conflicted with their doctrine.  They did not succeed in reaching every manuscript! This betrays yet another attempt to change their story, to shape the "facts."
  16. The New Testament is full of misinterpretations and out-of-context quotations of the Jewish Scriptures.  Jews knew this all through the Middle Ages, and it was one of the many good reasons why they did not believe in Jesus as their Messiah, but Christians hated the Jews, and Christian scholars were unwilling to look into it honestly until modern times. See my paper, “The Pre-Christian Jewish Concept of the Messiah: Appendix D: New Testament Interpretations of the Old Testament” [http://www.geocities.com/investigatingchristianity/MessianismPreChristian.html#appendixd] for several excellent examples.  Just one abbreviated example is the supposed prophecy of the virgin birth of the Messiah.  Isaiah 7:14-17 actually says in Hebrew, "Behold, the young woman will conceive"; it does NOT say "a virgin will conceive." Hebrew has a word that specifically means "virgin;" it is used in many places in the Bible, but not here. The writer of Matthew was using a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which used the Greek word parthena and can refer to a virgin, but does not necessarily do so. Virgin births were very common in Greek stories of heroes.   //  But there is much more. The child Isaiah prophesied about was supposed to live in the 700's BCE!!!: "...and before the boy is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong, the land . . . will be laid waste by the king of Assyria" (7:14-17). That happened in 732 and 722-21 BCE. The birth of the child was supposed to be a sign for King Ahaz in the 700's. Thus, there is NO WAY Isaiah was referring to some far off virgin birth of a spiritual messiah. There is no prophecy of a virgin birth of the messiah anywhere in Jewish scripture. Christians usually do not bother to read the rest of that passage in Isaiah. They too often do not bother to read the OT in context or learn Jewish history at all, and that is why they are easy prey for preachers and evangelists (who were once easy prey for others, etc. ad infinitum).
  17. Other good reasons for rational people to question the reliability of early Christian writers in general:  During the Greco-Roman era, it was relatively common for groups to write stories or "prophecies" or other literature and falsely attribute the writing to a hero, ancestor, prophet, or spiritual leader.  For example, early Christians had a document called the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, a Jewish pseudepigraphon into which they basically inserted a bunch of "prophecies" about Jesus and claimed that the prophecies were made by the 12 sons of Jacob almost 2000 years before Jesus. In other words, it was a fraud.  [And anyway, modern scholars and even plenty of lay people know that the patriarchal stories in Genesis are more myth and legend than history.]
    • Other examples of such pseudipigraphal and/or apocryphal works are the following Jewish and Christian texts: I and II Esdras, Tobit, the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sirach, Baruch, Letter to Jeremiah, some additions to Daniel (Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), Prayer of Manasseh, III and IV Maccabees, I and II Enoch (quoted by Jude in the New Testament), Ascension of Isaiah (more Christian "prophesies" of Jesus falsely attributed to Isaiah), II Baruch, Psalms of Solomon, Pseudo-Phocylides, and the Sybilline Oracles.  Daniel itself was circulated in the 2nd century BCE (during Jewish conflicts with Seleucid Syria) and falsely attributed to an old legendary hero to make it appear that the war was prophesied long before.
At least in the cases of Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs and Ascension of Isaiah, there is proof that early Jews and Christians were in the business of making up stories and attributing them to certain authors. In other words, people were inventing religion. And that's not all.
    • I already mentioned the fake literary correspondence between the Apostle Paul and the Roman philosopher Seneca.  Other early Christian writings included the Shepherd of Hermas, the Acts of Paul and Thecla, an Epistle of Barnabas, a Prayer of the Apostle Paul, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Truth, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Philip, Apocryphon of John, Gospel of the Egyptians, Acts of Peter and the Twelve, Thunder, Perfect Mind, Letter of Peter to Philip, Testimony of Truth, Eugnostos the Blessed, and many more.
And this is only what we know about!  Who knows how much other literature was destroyed.  People at that time were writing a tremendous amount of religious literature and passing it off as authoritative. In summary, NO early Christian writings are truly reliable or verifiably authentic.  So even if we didn’t have all the demonstrable errors and discrepancies that DO exist in the texts of the NT, still Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John could potentially be as “pretended” as many other early Christian writings.  Why are they in the Bible?  Because they were written from what became the "orthodox" viewpoint and were thus kept by the "orthodox" church while other writings were discarded, and because they were not sufficiently exposed to criticism at the time.  When "holy" texts and the power to read are in the hands of only a few people, many of them priests, it is much easier for priests to manipulate the public; and such was the case with Christianity until relatively modern times
    • The Jewish historian Josephus’ writings, Jewish War (80-90 CE) and Antiquities (c. 95 CE), do not support Christian claims.  However, later Christians during or after the 200’s CE did tamper with the text of Josephus’ Antiquities and insert Christian material into it in order to fabricate “historical” support for their claims. The following is called the “Testimonium Flavianum,” from Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3, in the translation of William Whiston:
      • Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
To people with a knowledge of ancient history, it will be immediately obvious that the passage is a fraud.  It looks practically like a creed from the 3rd or 4th century!  Furthermore, Josephus was Jewish and a Roman sympathizer, and the mass of his writings show beyond a doubt that he was no ChristianThe first person ever to cite the forged passage of Antiquities was the Christian writer Eusebius, writing in about 324 CE.  (Some historians think he probably wrote it himself.)  Before this, NO Christian writer ever suggested that Josephus said such.  The Christian author Origen (c. 185-254) even stated clearly that Josephus “he did not accept Jesus as Christ” (Commentary on Matthew 10.17), directly contradicting the later forged passage, and Origen appears to have no knowledge of the Testimonium Flavianum.  This forgery fits in with the fact that Christians were undeniably in the habit of fabricating literature to support their religion, as is attested by numerous examples, many of which I've listed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   

    18.  The writers of the gospels also report Jesus’ conversations when neither they nor any other humans were actually present.  If no one was present, how does anyone know what was said?  Examples include Jesus’ words during his time in the wilderness and his prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane the night of his arrest, when the disciples were sleeping.  If the disciples were asleep, then how could they have known what Jesus prayed?  [Mk 14:32-42; notice again the number 3.]  [The Old Testament suffers from this same ‘problem.’  Genesis records tons of stuff no one saw.  A funny example: the depth of the flood water above the highest mountain on earth in the Noah story – 15 cubits (about 22 feet) Gen 7:19-20.]

    19.  Many gospel passages seem even more obviously written for the authors’ contemporaries or in order to create justification for doctrine or institution.  The writers address people of their own day/community, but put their sentiments in the mouth of Jesus.  For example, read Jesus’ chapter-long prayer in John 17.  Why would Jesus/God need to pray this to himself?  Such would be pointless.  The author uses this piece of literature to communicate comforting teachings of the church to believers.  The story of doubting Thomas (John 20:29) is a god example of a story constructed to inculcate belief:  Jesus appears to the doubter and says, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”  To the skeptic, the purpose of the fabricated story seems obvious; to the believer who accepts the source without question, it is all the more ‘reason’ to believe.  Matthew 16:18-19 was probably artificially inserted into Jesus’ mouth, too: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

20.  The gospels bear other features of fictional literature.  Notice how the disciples are portrayed in the various gospels.  Many instances are unrealistic.  For example, read Mk 6:30-44 and 8:1-10.  According to Mark 6, Jesus feeds 5,000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish [5 + 2 = 7] and has 12 baskets full of leftovers.  Then in chapter 8, there is another crowd of 4,000 that had followed Jesus for 3 days [n.b. – 3], and the disciples say, “But where in this remote place can anyone get enough bread to feed them?”  What?!  So these men had supposedly just seen a miracle feeding of 5,000 people with a little bread and fish, and then had supposedly seen Jesus walk on water, but then they act as if none of that had ever happened and they wonder how 4,000 people will be fed?  [Note also, that this time the feeding is with 7 loaves, another special number.]  If one studies the characters of the disciples, one sees that the gospel writers use them like stock characters whose stupidity highlights the glory of the central character.  [Bonus:  Can you name the 12 disciples?  Be carefully which gospel you use.]


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This list is not complete, by any means, but it is a decent starter.  Facts such as these support the conclusion that there is no reliable or uncontroversial access to “the historical Jesus” (again, I am assuming there was one).  Those who attempt to dig behind the Christian propaganda and discover what any historical Jesus may have been like reach conclusions that often differ significantly from scholar to scholar and disturb those who want to believe the stories literally. 

Given such circumstances surrounding the development of Christianity, and observing that Jesus does not ever appear himself and confirm any of this literature for humanity's sake, I find myself unable to assume the New Testament is necessarily reporting the true words of Jesus. 

It is hard enough for an average modern human to remember the exact words someone said 45 years ago.  People may get snippits correct, but we usually end up paraphrasing and adding elements.  And this is a problem even with honest sources.  With the Christian sources, the entire set-up looks fishy to me. 

I readily admit that there may be some true words of a historical Jesus in the New Testament, but in order to be safe and honest, I try to use qualifying terms/phrases, such as “allegedly” or “according to the writer of Matthew, Jesus said ...”  That way I know I’m not lying.

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If you are new to this information, you may read

-- From Jesus to Christianity : How Four Generations of Visionaries & Storytellers Created the New Testament and Christian Faith, by L. Michael White (Dec 1, 2004)

-- New Testament Story: An Introduction, by David L. Barr (2001)   
   
Both men either are or were Christian.  Neither set out originally to "destroy the faith" or make fabrications.  Both books are well documented.  One of these men is a former professor of mine (although I learned most of the above before I took his classes), and the other one I met last year at a university lecture.  Both works are current standard textbooks for New Testament classes in many American universities.  You might also consider taking classes at a non-religious university from a professor.  Religious universities often suppress honest research/dialog and often refuse to hire professors who will not support their particular sectarian religious views – not an good set-up for an “educational” institution.  Sometimes even professors at non-religious universities suppress such information.

So many people either do not want to offend religious people, do not have the patience to talk about these topics, or are simply unaware of such information.

I have a web site that I started after I began to find problems in my religion:

 http://www.geocities.com/investigatingchristianity/index.html


 Posted 2/2/2008 4:48 AM - 7 comments

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Full and clear. Difficult to do. On thing you got wrong though. I won't bother to explain what here except to say that when Elvis returns, all will be revealed.

Posted 2/4/2008 3:06 AM by Lovegrove - reply

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Just a thought. For those who see the bible as Divinely inspired, then what is unknown is unimportant for what they see as the central point, salvation.
Posted 2/4/2008 3:40 AM by Lovegrove - reply

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Good stuff, though I did not read it all, but will come back later if I can remember.

RYC: Thanks.

Posted 2/5/2008 8:27 AM by hecticmuse - reply

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I added an 18-20.

I also added the following to my original MSword document:

Also, Mark, Matthew, and Luke all depict 3 hours of darkness while Jesus was on the cross, echoing the 3 days of darkness from Exodus 10:21-23 and perhaps Amos 8:9 and Joel 2:31.

There was no solar eclipse during the crucifixion. In fact, since Passover coincides with the full moon, there could never be a solar eclipse on Passover. But this did not deter Christian writers like Eusebius from fabricating “historical” evidence for a solar eclipse.

The “darkness over all the earth” from the 6th to 9th hour is a symbolic fiction created by Christians.
Posted 2/5/2008 10:28 PM by WindOnReed2 - reply

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A very detailed post indeed. Most of it I've heard before, and Christians have attempted to answer the difficulties (Some of them are found in Gleason Archer's book, "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties."

I do think that Christians typically fail to see the weight of the difficulties you present. On the other hand, even though the answers to the difficulties are sometimes rather ad hoc, there are answers. Of course, to prevent the ad hocness from completely undermining the answers, there should be some independent evidence for the faith. If there is enough, then the ad hocness might be excused.
Posted 2/7/2008 2:35 AM by believeordoubt - reply

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ryc: Your comments are not unwelcome. I'm stable enough in my faith to not be shaken by arguments against it, whether they be strong or weak. However, I am going to delete it; the primary purpose of the post was for me to have a record of my notes, but I also hoped that others would sit up and take notice, that it would provide food for thought. If someone doesn't know what they believe and happens upon the post, I don't want any consideration of Christianity and the authority of Christ Jesus to be wiped of their mind because of your argument.

I would like to commend you for using scripture to back your argument. It's the only source I trust on the subject of the divinity of Christ, because as a Christian, I fully believe the Bible is the True, inerrant Word of God. Howevever, that belief means that any questioning of the credibility of the authors and their perspectives, bias, seemingly different stories about Christ and His life and whatnot is not going to sway me in the least. These words were not their own, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Concerning your citation of verses which reference God and Christ as separate entities, "God" typically refers to the Father, just one person in the trinity.

My biggest argument for verses that support the notion that Jesus is God are verses which quote Christ. I already mentioned some of them in my post. John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (emphasis by me, obviously). Those last two words are very emphatic in the original Greek, and they echo God's great affirmation in Exodus 3:14. Also, the verb tense Christ used is extremely significant. Who but God can claim to be eternal in such a sense? Secondly, John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Christ Himself made those claims. These are not simply passages written by various authors, they are direct quotes. True, they were written quite a while after the fact, but as I said before, I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

You and I both referenced Mark 10:17-18, but it appears we have different interpretations. I read it and see Jesus asking the young man "Why do you call me good?" in the same way He asked Peter, "But what about you? Who do you say I am?" (Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20). He wanted to hear Peter professing his faith aloud, avowing before Jesus, other disciples, and Peter himself, so that others and even he himself may be sure in his belief. It's why Romans 10:9-10 tells us--That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. But you said both passages from Mark do not support the notion that Jesus=God. Perhaps for you they are unconvincing, because you seem to consider "Son of God" and "God" mutually exclusive. How is that so? There is a distinction, but this does not mean that one is deity and the other is not. Jesus is the Son of the Father, but I do not like your use of the word "only."

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:1-5
This is a reference to Jesus. He said "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." (Jn 14:6) and also "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. When John writes that "the Word was with God," he indicates that the Word was distinct from the Father; when he writes "and the Word was God," he makes it undeniably obvious that they are one.

You say according to Acts, Paul taught not that Jesus was God, but that He was God's Messiah. However, Paul was also the author of Romans, and in Romans 9:5 he writes: Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. So clearly Paul consider Jesus Christ (for who else is called "Christ" in the entire Old and New Testaments?!) This is one of the clearest statements of Christ's divinity in the entire NT. Also quite clear are Mat 1:23 (a reference to Isaiah and Jesus title as Immanuel, meaning "God with us"); Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known; Philippians 2:5-6 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped; Colossians 1:15-20; Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullnes of the Deity lives in bodily form...; Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ; 2 Peter 1:1 ...To those who throught the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours...

That's multiple authors agreeing on the divinity of Christ Jesus. I see no dispute among the authors of the scriptures. Among the Jews mentioned by the scriptures, certainly, but not among the authors.

Posted 2/8/2008 12:03 AM by citta_eterna - reply

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ABOUT THE RESURRECTION:



Who went to the tomb that Sunday morning?

* Mt-- (28:1) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
* Mk-- (Mk 16:1) Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome
* Lk-- (24:1); (24:10) Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and others
* Jn-- (20:1-2,10-18); (20:2-8) Mary Magdalene

At what time did the visitor(s) visit the tomb?

* Mt-- as it began to dawn
* Mk-- at the rising of the sun
* Lk-- very early in the morning
* Jn-- early, while it was yet dark

What was her/their purpose?

* Mt-- (28:1) to look at the tomb
* Mk-- (16:1) (15:47) to anoint Jesus’ body
* Lk-- (24:1) (23:55) to take spices they had prepared [implied: to anoint Jesus’ body]
* Jn-- (19:39,40) silent

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

* Mt-- (28:2) it was opened
* Mk-- (16:2-4) yes
* Lk-- (24:2) yes
* Jn-- (20:1) yes

Who was at the tomb?

* Mt-- (28:2-4) an angel
* Mk-- (16:5) [implied: an angel]
* Lk-- (24:4) [implied: two angels]
* Jn-- (20:12) two angels

Where was/were the character(s) [already at the tomb] situated?

* Mt-- (28:2-7) sitting on the stone
* Mk-- (16:5) sitting to the right of the tomb
* Lk-- (24:4) standing beside them
* Jn-- (20:12) seated where Jesus’ body had been

What did the messenger(s) say?

* Mt-- (28:5-7) “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”

* Mk-- (16:6-7) “Don’t be alarmed. You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

* Lk-- (24:5-7) “Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’”

* Jn-- (20:13) “Woman, why are you crying?”

Did the woman/women tell what happened?

* Mt-- (28:8) yes

* Mk-- (16:8) not at first, because they were frightened

* Lk-- (24:9) yes

* Jn-- (20:18) yes

* Mk(b) Appendage to Mark -- (16:9-10) Mary Magdalene did after seeing Jesus

Who first saw Jesus?

* Mt-- (28:1,8-9) the women

* Mk-- up through 16:8, scripture is silent

* Mk(b) -- (Mk16:9-10) Mary Magdalene

* Lk-- (24:13-31), (24:33-35) silent on whether they were first to see him, but the first witnesses Luke mentions were the two on the road to Emmaus

* Jn-- (Jn 20:10-18) Mary Magdalene

* Paul-- (1 Cor 15:5) “he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve” (does not say whether Peter was first)

When did Mary Magdalene first see Jesus?

* Mt-- (28:9-10) when she and the other Mary were on their way to tell the disciples

* Mk-- Earliest version doesn't have an encounter between Mary and Jesus and ends at 16:8

* Mk(b)-- (16:9-10) “when he rose early on the first day of the week”

* Lk-- (24:1-10) the same day

* Jn-- (20:1-18) after telling the disciples and showing them the tomb

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

* Mt-- (28:9) yes

* Mk-- silent

* Lk-- (24:39) yes

* Jn-- (20:17) (20:27) yes

Not counting women, to whom did Jesus first appear?

* Mt-- (28:10,16-17) the eleven disciples

* Mk--

* Mk(b) (16:12-13) (16:14) two of the disciples

* Lk-- (24:13-31) (24:33-35) the two on the road to Emmaus

* Jn-- (20:24) his disciples

* Paul-- (1 Cor 15:3-8) Peter and the Twelve

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples? How near to (or far from) Jerusalem?

* Mt-- (28:16-17) the mountain in Galilee where he had told them to go

* Mk-- (16:6-7)

* Mk(b)-- (16:12-14) “in the country”

* Lk-- (24:13-36) on the road to Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem

* Jn-- (20:18-19) silent on where

Did the disciples believe the two men who saw Jesus while out walking?

* Mk(b) (16:13) no

* Lk-- (24:33-35) Jesus appears before scripture tells us the disciples’ reactions

What happened at the appearance of Jesus?

* Mt-- (28:17-20)

* Mk-- no record.

* Mk(b) (16:14-20)

* Lk-- (24:16) (24:31) (24:36-53)

* Jn-- (20:14-15) (19-22)(20:26-30) (21:1ff).

Was the resurrected Jesus wounded? If so, where?

* Mt-- silent

* Mk-- silent

* Lk-- (24:39-40) could be inferred; he showed the disciples his hands and feet, where the nails had pierced him… Luke does not record whether or not there were notable injuries

* Jn-- (20:20,25,27) (19:34-35) yes; hands and side

Did Jesus stay on the earth for a while? How long?

* Mt-- silent

* Mk(b) (16:14-19) silent

* Lk-- (24:13, 24:29, 24:33, 24:36) little time seems to have passed

* Jn-- (Jn 20:26, Jn 21:1-23) yes; the duration of time is not mentioned

* Acts-- (1:3) yes, for 40 days

Did Jesus ascend to the sky/heaven? If so, where did Jesus' ascension take place?

* Mt-- silent

* Mk-- (16:6,7) silent

* Mk(b) (16:14,19) (16:9-20) yes; silent on location

* Lk-- (24:50-51) yes

* Jn-- silent

* Paul--

* Acts-- (1:9-12) yes

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABOUT JOSEPH, MARY'S HUSBAND:

Who was Joseph's father?

-- (Lk 3:23) Heli

-- (Mt 1:16) Jacob

Who were Joseph's grandfather and great-grandfather?

-- (Lk 3:24) Matthat and Levi

-- (Mt 1:15)Matthan and Eleazar

From which son and grandson of David was Joseph descended?

-- (Lk 3:31) Nathan; Mattatha

-- (Mt 1:6-7) Solomon; Rehoboam

How many generations of humans existed from Adam to Jesus?

-- (Lk 3) 76

-- (Mt 1) at first glance, it would seem that there are 41 generations from Abraham to Jesus, and Luke lists 19 generations from Adam to Abraham; however, Jesus is referred as “the Son of David, the Son of Abraham” in Matthew 1:1, though clearly neither of these was his father

Matthew mentions Eleazar and Matthan as Joseph’s great-grandfather and grandfather, respectively (Mt 1:15), and Luke mentions an Eliezer in Jesus’ line (Lk 3:29). Also, it is possible that a man could have two lines back to the same man many, many, many generations before him… perhaps there is more than one way to trace Jesus’ lineage back to David; after all, David had several wives and several children…

---
Why do you think there are genealogies in Matthew and Luke and none in Mark or John?
---Each of the different gospels has a distinct purpose.

Where do you think they got their information?
---They probably researched it; I’m not a scholar on this sort of thing, so I can’t tell you for sure.

Why do you think they want to depict Jesus as a descendant of David?
---Based on the prophecies from the Old Testament, the Jews knew to expect a king. They expected someone who would come to take the throne of an actual, existing government among humanity; however, those prophecies were not simply figurative in that sense. Jesus was descended from the line of David, a hugely famous and popular king. The authors of Matthew and Luke want to illustrate that Jesus was kingly, though he did not care to govern on this earth. Though scripture tells us Joseph was not Jesus’ father, the culture was a patriarchal one, so the authors of the gospels listed Joseph’s lineage rather than Mary’s.

How many generations of humans do you think existed from Adam to Jesus?
---I haven’t the slightest idea. Considering Matthew seems to omit some generations, as I previously theorised… And that the Bible records many of the first several generations as living for hundreds of years (including Methuselah, who lived for almost a millennium)… And the fact that according to the Old Testament, all humanity except for Noah and his family were wiped off the face of the earth all at once… I’m convinced it’s impossible to determine how many generations of humans existed.

Posted 2/11/2008 12:40 AM by citta_eterna - reply


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