Atheist Thoughts"Secular black commentators charged that the goad to the antievolution movement, from the top on down, was fear of Darwinism's racial implications. If black and white had a common ancestry, as evolutionary theory suggested, then the South's elaborate racial barriers might seem arbitrary rather than God-given."- Jeffrey P. Morgan
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Original: 5/9/2008 10:19 PM
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Friday, May 09, 2008
 

In response to the movie Expelled, the NCSE created a website called Expelled Exposed which, as the title suggests, shows how the film pretty much lied to get their point of view across. I was reading it today and there two things that I thought were really impressive. First is this article. Many Id proponents have claimed a conspiracy in science has closed the door to them, but this article shows that even ideas that are viewed very negatively in the scientific community can come to be accepted if one actually does the research. There's a paragraph near the end that I think summarizes the entire debate very well:

"There is no reason why intelligent design proponents cannot follow in the footsteps of these distinguished scientists who overcame sometimes considerable opposition, sometimes for a very long time, before their scientific views prevailed. Unlike ID advocates, these researchers didn’t skip past the research phase to try to influence the public before they had scientific support. None of them formed groups to lobby school boards to teach their views in the public schools; they just buckled down and did the work. None of them drafted model legislation or penned op-eds in newspapers and magazines decrying the supposed persecution they suffered at the hands of The Establishment; they just buckled down and did the work. None of them hired former Nixon speechwriters or game-show hosts to compare their opponents to Hitler; they just buckled down and did the work."

The second thing that got me thinking was this video that they had on their website. I've heard almost everything in there before, but there was one statement that I thought was really interesting. She said that anything that can grow can evolve. By this she meant that anything that can form on an embryo could, by a similar process, evolve. I never thought of it like that. How could something in the human body be irreducibly complex if everybody developed in small incremental steps before they were born?

 Posted 5/9/2008 10:19 PM - 8 comments

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In answer to your last question, the "incremental steps" thing might work for lots of macro biological claims (like eyes), but as is (as you stated it) irreducible complexity could still potentially be found in the cell itself, since that doesn't technically start from scratch every time. Perhaps you should reframe your question to be more precise.
Posted 5/10/2008 1:13 AM by Agnostics_R_Us Xanga Premium Member - reply

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[How could something in the human body be irreducibly complex if everybody developed in small incremental steps before they were born?]

Because all the DNA that was necessary was already there from the moment of conception.
Posted 5/10/2008 1:46 AM by LSP1 - reply

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What's always confused me is the jump from asexual to sexual reproduction.  I know that there are certain plants that do this...and that frogs can jump sexes...but the formation of sexual reproduction still doesn't make much sense to me
Posted 5/14/2008 12:43 PM by Evowookiee Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply

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"Many Id proponents have claimed a conspiracy in science has closed the door to them, but this article shows that even ideas that are viewed very negatively in the scientific community can come to be accepted if one actually does the research. There's a paragraph near the end that I think summarizes the entire debate very well:"

I think there is a crucial disanalogy between earlier fights against paradigms and IDT, IDT appeals to intelligence, and argues that no reasonable natural explanation is possible for cellular complexity. The earlier contenders were other natural explanations. They were rejected probably because they disagreed with the paradigm. IDT is rejected for deeper reasons, philosophical reasons such as methodological naturalism. So that paper was not really fair to IDT regarding their appeal to the public.

My beef with Big Science (BS) isn't it's rejection of IDT, but it's methodological naturalism. I think that to be charitable to Stein I'd say that that's what is beef is against too. And BS refuses to even acknowledge that MN is controversial, and its support is, at best, outside of science. And I think that to get BS to admit their philosophical stance and open themselves to real philosophical debate one might need to go to another power.

My dissertation advisor in grad school told me once: "If you can't convince your opponent that he's wrong, convince others."
Posted 5/14/2008 9:20 PM by believeordoubt - reply

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@believeordoubt - 



Science, by definition, uses methodological naturalism. Science can study an effect if it effects the natural world and this effect is predictable. Anything that meats these two criteria is by definition natural. For example, If a god existed, he could have an effect on the natural world, but it would not be predictable. So, while science doesn't rule out supernatural possibilities, it will never except them as a paradigm. So if an Id proponent wants to wine about exclusion a priori from philosophy they could possibly make a legitimate case, but ID does not make specific enough predictions to even be considered as science. If Stein had had an issue with methodological naturalism, then he should have attacked science as a whole, and not evolution specifically. In fact, if he had had a problem with science at all maybe he should have been more honest instead of lying about how these people's lives were "ruined" when they really weren't.

I've been planning on doing a post on a very similar topic to this, I've just been too lazy.

Tony
Posted 5/14/2008 10:03 PM by atheistthoughts - reply

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Where do you get the "definition of science" anyway? Who made the decision?

Are you familiar with the history of science?

Do you have a problem in general with God as an explanation?

What would count as evidence for God's evidence?
Posted 5/15/2008 12:32 AM by believeordoubt - reply

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That is, what would count as evidence for God's existence, if anything, on your view, if God is excluded from any sort of empirical confirmation (anything confirmation from the senses would count as rudimentary science)?
Posted 5/15/2008 12:35 AM by believeordoubt - reply

"Do you have a problem in general with God as an explanation?"

Indeed. Please see: http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-102519600994873365&hl=en
Posted 5/18/2008 1:48 AM by EYM - reply


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