To make things easier and better laid out, I have created a forum.  Please join there.  I will continue with this site, but won't post as often.

http://p4.forumforfree.com/christianopinio.html

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

-- I Timothy 2:11-12

I like these verses.  They say that a women can learn and teach, but she must do it in subjection and submit to men at the same time.

I'm curious how you would interpret them.  According to aied8pes, if we took verses like these literally, women would not even be allowed in the church or allowed to wear jewelry and pants and such.  Do you agree, disagree?

For more, see the posts under my second entry and first question regarding whether women should be pastors or not.

On the note of my last question:

What do you think is required of salvation?

Personally, I think that salvation is aquired only when you accept Christ into your heart as Lord and Savior.  It has nothing to do with baptism or good works.  However, after you become a Christian, God does call you to be a servant.  That can include works.  They are what you do to show Christ to others.

This ties into my last two conversations when it comes to interpreting the Bible.  No, we don't have to interpet the Bible correctly to go to heaven, but does God want us to interpret the Bible?  How do we do that?  What if we are wrong, or someone else is wrong?

There is a child-like faith that Jesus tells us we need to have.  How do we keep that child like faith and interpret the Bible at the same time?  There is the child like faith, but interpreting the Bible complicates things because so many arguments can be made.  So, how do we simplifiy things?  Where is the line drawn?

I think in the last conversation, which is ongoing, there was a good point/question brought up.  So, I thought I would use it as my next question.

How do you interpret scriptures without bending their meaning?  What was the intent of the original author?  Are the meanings more general in our modern day?  How do we keep things in context?

Women Pastors

My first question has to do with womens' rights in a way. 

What do you think of women being pastors?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've had this very discussion on my site a couple of times. I don't have a problem w/ women pastors. Kathryn Kuhlman ministered to the masses as did Corrie Tin Boom.

* Judges 4:4 leader of Israel at the time...

Posted 2/15/2006 at 7:39 PM by aied8pes - delete - block user

Regarding your comment on my site: I personally don't put God in a box.  I'm not going to say women shouldn't be "pastors". 

You ought to visit this sight, this guy is precious and his grandma is the pastor of their church.

www.xanga.com/izakura

Is it ordained that women wear make up, jewelry or walk around with their head uncovered? How about wearing pants? That's actually mens clothing...

My point is, we can't be too legalistic, or we CHOKE out the love and Life of God.

His peace and blessings to you.

by the way, I wasn't saying anything "bad" about your sponge bob photo.

Posted 2/16/2006 at 8:37 AM by aied8pes - delete - block user

You started a good discussion, here!

First, we don't want to judge people for their beliefs.  You can disagree with someone and still like them.  Let me say it another way:  You can still love people when they make mistakes different from your own.

People abuse the terms "legalistic" and "putting God in a box."  It isn't legalistic to want to please God or love Him back by upholding His expressed will.  It doesn't "put God in a box" if you defend the boundaries that He has laid out for your blessing and protection.  Hypocritically, people "put God in a box" when they argue against His wisdom.

People often fall into the trap of confusing the expression of affection with "loving."  That's why some musicians' performace of "praise" music mixes words of reverence and affection with an ungodly mixture of beat, dissonance, dress, and dance.  Instead of loving a Holy God through their actions, they substitute lip-service.  "These people praise me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

These people don't disagree with you; they disagree with the Holy Spirit, whose words Paul wrote limiting the offices that people should hold.  Just because you can do something well (izakura's grandma may make a wonderful pastor!), doesn't mean it's right.

Sometimes a group such as grandma's church ought pursue God's perfect will by disbanding and joining another church, but they push ahead presumptively, settling for less than God's best.  On the other hand, the book of Judges shows that sometimes God sends the "wrong" person to lead a group because, to the shame of that group, no better-qualified person will lead it.

By the way, Kathryn Kuhlman was a corrupt faith healer who ripped off a lot of people, left hurting people poorer, and worse, preached a false gospel.

Posted 2/18/2006 at 1:26 PM by alphadogtucker - delete - block user

Hm

I think woman should not be a pastor

comment back so i can remember to articulate more since its late and i have to prepare teaching sunday school tommorow

Posted 2/18/2006 at 10:51 PM by gideonrecon - delete - block user

Alphadugtucker, are you a member of the Church of christ denomination?

You can not know the heart of man and it's very judgmental of you to tear down another person's form of worship, not very Christ like now is it?

Sounds like you might be preaching a FALSE doctrine yourself, one of disdain and judgment of others, especially your remark about "Grandma's church" - Pretty PIOUS of you.

I imagine you will come back w/ a "victim" answer and claim that I'm attacking you because you're so "holy" and you think I'm not. 

I am however saying, SHAME on you, you DO put God in a box, and SHAME on you for saying things about people you don't even know- Grandma's church!

Repent Brother, Repent for your mouth is an open grave.

Posted 2/19/2006 at 3:43 PM by aied8pes - delete - block user

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

  --  I Timothy 2:11-12

If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife....

  --  I Timothy 3:1-2

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

I find that people who call others judgemental are among the most judgemental of people.  aied8pes, you read (incorrectly) so much INTO what's in my heart (and that makes what you said hypocritical, as well) that you completely missed WHAT I wrote.  You might want to ice that finger after shaking it at me so hard.  I'm just glad I didn't publish an editorial cartoon about grandma's church in your newspaper...!

The only thing I'd change about what I wrote above would be to make it more explicit that the two hypotheticals I proposed about grandma's church were possiblities, not accusations.  I shouldn't even have to point out that I said, "grandma might be a wonderful pastor," and implied that we can still like her and love her even if we disagree with her (or her hot-headed defenders).  I didn't "judge" anyone except one faith-healing charlatain who was given as an example of a woman pastor -- and she wasn't even a pastor; she was an evangelist.

If someone tells you that you're "putting God into a box," it's usually because they've climbed out of the box God gave them for their protection, and they don't like hearing you say anything that points out what they're doing.  Since they can't attack the message, they attack the messenger.  I don't hate or judge aied8pes -- the attack of the immature doesn't harm a mature adult -- but I do hope I've shocked aied8pes into reconsidering his/her volatile approach and position.

Posted 2/21/2006 at 12:44 AM by alphadogtucker - delete - block user

 Well Frenchgirl, I'm sorry. I'm not going to talk anymore on this matter. I see alphadogtucker is unable to see God can and does use many people to spread his word.

I will say it again, repent alphadogtucker! Funny, you never said if you are part of the Church of Christ denomination, probably because you are and they are modern day pharisees.

I don't attack the message, I embrace the message

I'm wondering, does alphadogtucker stop women from attending his church who wear makeup, jewelry, (wedding rings) pants or no covering on their head? I mean come on, if you're going to stay in the box, you'd better stay in it!  Don't forget to pluck your eye out, as I'm sure it's caused you to sin atleast once.

The sad thing is, if we were to do as alphadog suggests, many women would not be allowed to enter a church...

Peace and blessings to you Frenchgal.

Posted 2/24/2006 at 1:57 PM by aied8pes - delete - block user

I agree, Church of Christ follows the pharisaical heresy of sacramentalism.  They teach that the new birth comes through water baptism.  Amy Grant even sang a song about it in her first album.  "Me and Jesus did some talking last night.... I'm going down to the river to be reborn, and come up walking in the light."

aied8pes continues to attack his/her imaginary version of me in order to avoid dealing in any substantial way with the subject.  Pity.  You can't have intelligent exchanges with such people.  Refusing to talk anymore on this matter is the first wise thing (s)he's said.

Back to the point, however... churches with women pastors almost always practice the doctrines of either the Pharisees or the Sadducees.  Either they practice some degree of sacramentalism (i.e., shifting some portion of the works of justification and regeneration from God to man), or they make Swiss cheese out of the Bible because of their existentialist preconceptions.  I'm sure there are exceptions, but I haven't come across any, yet.

Posted 2/24/2006 at 3:42 PM by alphadogtucker - delete - block user

How funny, alpha is playing the victim, just like I said he would! LoL 

  Maybe if Alpha spent more time seeking God and knowing Him instead of trying to prove why women shouldn't lead, he'd be more useful to the kingdom of God.

Anyone whom God wants to use, is fit to lead. Ruth, Esther, Deborah...hello! 

I'm not going to fight about it because we are told in Titus 3 verse 9 to AVOID such follish fights.

Thank you and have a nice life.

<><

Posted 2/24/2006 at 5:23 PM by aied8pes - delete - block user 
 
I don't think women should be pastors. They can teach women, children and youth, but in order for the man to be the spiritual head, the woamn needs to submit.
Posted 2/27/2006 at 1:35 PM by ebaben - delete - block user

aied8pes, do you approve of homosexuality?  The Bible is strictly against it, but many churches are allowing them to become pastors.  What do you think about that?  I mean, according to your rational and reasoning, wouldn't it still be OK for them to be pastors as long as they are teaching well?  God could still use them, right?

What about pastors who have committed adultry?  Is right for them to be pastors?

I have a lot more to say on your argument with alphadogtucker, but do not have the time to write it all out right now.  I will return later, maybe in a few days, to finish.

Posted 2/27/2006 at 3:51 PM by FrenchGal4Christ - delete

I like where this debate is going.  We should continue.  I'll be the moderator.  Although I do have my own opinions, I'll stay on both sides and ask questions equally so there is no unfair treatment.

gideonrecon why do you not think women should be pastors?

aied8pes why do you think women should be pastors?  What is your opinion of the verses in the Bible that say women should be under men and should not be heads of a church?  Do you think that those verses do not apply to today?  I am also curious why you think verses should not be taken literally.

alphadogtucker did you mean to "play the victim"?  It does not seem to me like you were judging anyone or accusing anyone.  Afterall, aied8pes is the one who said "I will say it again, repent alphadogtucker" and "SHAME on you, you DO put God in a box, and SHAME on you for saying things about people you don't even know- Grandma's church! Repent Brother, Repent for your mouth is an open grave."  I am also curious why you think that verses should be taken literally.

I have a lot more to say on your argument with alphadogtucker, but do not have the time to write it all out right now.  I will return later, maybe in a few days, to finish.

Posted 2/27/2006 at 4:19 PM by FrenchGal4Christ - delete