OMG... you remember conversations with incredible detail... OR you record your conversations! Scary either way.

it's on msn la -_-

Lol.

Wei, Joyce, you seem to like this Josh, but he seems damn combative. Even if he disputes some of the points, his tone could have been nicer. Let me point out some things as well.

At first Advertlets' requirements were definitely around 100 hits a day. Then they dropped to 50. Josh must have just changed it to 0.

He makes it sound like the polls are more "accurate". Yeah, in theory, only if readers answers the polls. I don't remember the last time I bothered with a poll. Nuffnang's way is just to get an idea of who the blog readers are: teenagers? people interested in IT stuff (IT blogs)? girls (shopping blogs)?

Launch 8 days after Nuffnang? Yeah, but Josh, after several bloggers pointed out all over the blogosphere that your website backend has many errors (serious or not), you and your IT staff, "Nabil", kept saying that Advertlets was in "beta". Ahahahahahahaha.

Your comparison chart, again? It has been pointed out time and time again that there were so many frivolous errors. You only changed them after a lot of people commented.

A lot of people feel that the Nuffnang folks are a lot more down-to-earth and approachable than the caustic Advertlets. Advertlets is always attacking Nuffnang, when both can exist together to expand the market.

omg i feel like i've just peeped into a lowyat net forum...- _ - joyyyyyyyyyce please talk about fashion pls..me no understand tech speak lols ;p

For the record, I'm a very careful reporter. I checked the Advertlets site right before I submitted the article to make sure I got the facts right -- since Josh told me he was doing major changes.

And how were I to know that the very next day Advertlets put up different models and features?

It's like one day I check it was 100, the next time then 50, and now no requirements... sigh, make up your mind already!

About the accuracy of online polls: I spoke to experts on the subject matter, and they told me that you cannot quantify the quality of information gathered through online polls. In short, data collected from online polls is garbage. It is information that cannot be used.

As for omitting facts, do you know how many complaints I received about Advertlets during my research? If you wanted the plain whole truth, I would have included all that, but I thought I'd be kind.

And what thanks I get? Petty complaints.

Seriously. In all my seven years of journalism, this is the first time I've received such complaints. I think Advertlets has really poorly handled this.

Sincerely,
Christy Lee (yes, the one who wrote the article)

Christy: I don't blame you for the traffic requirements part, but as you know, the world of technology changes very fast, and hence writing for tech is challenging. Information can be outdated in even one day.

But I still think there was a serious error on the launch date of Advertlets: 8 days after is very different compared to a month after. The wording could have been a lot more accurate, especially since exact dates were provided.

However - what's with your overgeneralized statement that data collected from online polls is garbage?

Tell that to Vizu.com, AC Nielsen, Microsoft & Yahoo. Or closer to home, YourVoice.com.my, various political parties with online presences, and even the MCMC & KTAK. Online polling is the quickest way to accumulate and aggregate opinions from a large audience. A key factor for accurate polling is sample size .

The poll widget was something we worked very hard to develop and is a key advantage that we have over Nuffnang. Even they admit its pretty impressive.

From a technical and logical standpoint, it is more interesting to cover (AJAX, embedded, public, multiple-choice, multi-user and automated) than the other method that Nuffnang uses which is nothing more sophisticated than a feedback form directed to one person that instructs them to guess. Which cannot possibly be more accurate.

Why you chosen to highlight their inferior method or claim that we have *shock* similiar features is regrettable.

You can read more here on how it works.

http://www.entrepreneur27.org/sg/2007/03/20/advertletscom-new-poll-driven-blog-advertising-network/

Sigh. Christy, if I were the only one complaining, you could look on this as petty. But its not just me, and its not just Advertlets.

And well, don't take it personally. I did tell you on the phone that I don't think you're unprofessional, but some key omissions were really to our disadvantage as well as the readers. You can't say "people don't care" about technical features, especially for something like this, and then leave it out because you think they don't.

I also did say that although I believe your intent is good, I did let you know that I would be addressing some misconceptions brought about by the article. Which is really my own prerogative, as you agreed.

----------

Hilineindustries:

We dropped the requirements when we launched new ad formats. Originally it was just per impression, but now that we have cost per click - traffic is less relevant now.

And just so you know, over 1000 readers have answered the polls on Joyce's site, which has since been taken down since we accumulated enough. Good sample size, don't you think?

(I can also provide you statistics on the rest of the bloggers, but it depends on who you are. What's your name btw? I know some other people who play golf in country clubs. You're from Singapore right? But in short, over 100,000 demographic poll submissions have been received already, which you can see from our main page.)

Nuffnang's way is to ask the blogger on who their readers are. Which can be no better than guessing. Us at Advertlets, and a lot of Advertlets users think its way better to let the readers answer themseves in an organized manner.

As for bugs - they are fixed. It's harder to do something more ambitious, we admit, and we do state right on our main page, we're still in Beta. But do you see any more errors?

Nabil Feisal Bamadhaj, Project Manager Extraodinare says hi too, and "no." :) As for the comparision chart, you're free to challenge it too, as is anyone, if you think there are any errors now.

You are stuck in the past tense though. Let me know if you find anything actually current or worth complaining about, mmkay? :)

And well, as to your last point, you would be quiet and humble too when you know you're not doing a good job. There are far too many blue default banners around. Food for thought? And regarding the "market" maybe you'll like to brush up on simple economic principles of supply, demand, and competition.

If you look at the current situation with the competition with the telcos in Malaysia - is the consumer market expanding or shrinking?

Lastly, I'll like to leave you with some reading material:

http://blackjetta.blogspot.com/2007/05/feverish-gibberish-fret-not.html
http://mount-kinabalu-borneo.com/blog/2007/05/25/advertlets-vs-nuffnang-result-after-1-month/
http://www.mohdismail.com/blog/adverlets-31-kali-lebih-baik-dari-nuffnang/
http://www.cikguazleen.com/index.php/blogging-guide/2007/04/kenali-pembaca-blog-anda.html


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* Takes deep breath, exhales... *

Hi Hong Kiat! :) And, hi Michelle! How's your Josh? :) Usual fashion stuff should resume shortly, haha.

about the advertising / voiceouts going online - i reckon it's generally not good practice to point out a competitor's flaws to promote how youes is better.
hmm. well. this is turning out interesting.

errr

i agree with lainie.

normally, i wouldn't care about this kind of stuff. however, aren't kimberly and her boyfriend gareth die-hard nuffnang supporters? it doesn't seem fair not to mention that wei.,

youdonthavetochooseOneorEither or better known as anonymous coward: reducing me to a mindless partisan ain't going to change the fact that it's never good practice to point out your competitor's flaws. actions speaks louder than words, if advertlets is as good as it claims, bloggers and advertisers will slowly but surely find out, what's more with the influence of marketing guru superjosh surely advertlets will shine like a beacon in the mud. no?

• Ms. Lee's comments say it all. And many bloggers agree:

"Seriously. In all my seven years of journalism, this is the first time I've received such complaints."

"As for omitting facts, do you know how many complaints I received about Advertlets during my research? If you wanted the plain whole truth, I would have included all that, but I thought I'd be kind."

This Josh guy just needs to get the chip off his shoulder. The market is big enough for two, but he always uses petty denigration of Nuffnang.

• This blogger below has much time on his hands, but you can read how caustic Advertlets is:
http://www.tenthofmarch.com/2007/04/24/more-bugs-found-in-advertlets-system/
http://www.tenthofmarch.com/2007/04/06/public-message-to-josh/

Sorry la Joyce if this response to Josh's comment above takes up too much space, but there needs to be 2 sides of the story. Or rather, a response to lies told.

• While Joyce allegedly has 1,000 respondents to polls, what percentage is that of total unique readers? Site meter below has 138,117 visitors since 2004. What are the percentage of responders on other blogs? No one said online polls were garbage. But you CANNOT claim polls are accurate without better proof.

• You admit there are bugs, yet so loudly proclaim you only launch 8 days after Nuffnang. What's the point who launches first? Just give a good product!

You loudly said that you registered "joshlim.com" years before "nuffnang.com"? (I don't know what the heck that has to do with anything, but demonstrate how ludicrous your marketing is).

I repeat, there is a big enough market, work to expand it! Instead of making unsupported claims against Nuffnang, against reporters, against the intelligence of bloggers like Shaolin Tiger, Kimberlycun, Jeff Ooi, Kid Chan and 1,700 others who chose Nuffnang also.

HMM.. both gib me money enough liao ~_~.. but Advertlets is better.. :O cuz nuffnang never giv me any ads ~_~'

Kimberly: better anonymous coward than deceptive mindless partisan. I like quite a few blogs from "both sides", so I'm not choosing either side.. at least until it stabilizes or a clearer better choice emerges.

and well, so the angry mob is here, with torches and pitchforks to boot! from the way it sounds here and how they are trying to tar and feather Josh they seem to think its a Mr. Personality/Mr Nice Guy contest. isn't this about online advertising for blogs?

true enough, some of the comparisions are petty on their chart (and some quite stupid) but.. what about *the other comparisions that matter* ? the nuffnang loyalists are suprisingly silent on this.

it reminds me of that someone who said a quote akin to this "if i say that there are a whole fucking lot of people dying in this world due to hunger, more people would be offended by the fact that i said the word fucking rather than be concerned of the people dying of hunger."

though having said that it'll be great to see nuffnang actually compete on delivering more to its bloggers. or at least counter with something of substance. really.. you do see so many of their nuffnang blue banners around, but where is the real advertising?

its still too early to tell who's really leading though, nuffnang or adverlets. how many people are making money from advertlets? or nuffnang? and how much? but its getting quite ugly on both sides..and surprisingly political.

Hilineindustries: where are you getting your figures from? 1700 is a very bold and not to mention incrediblely VERY specific claim and doesn't seem to be mentioned on the nuffnang blog or anywhere. and are you really claiming that nuffnang has 1700 loyal, exclusive supporters who are not signed up with the other side?

and wtf. seriously i can't help thinking that the figure is way too specific. who are you anyway? another mindless partisan? a close friend of ming and timothy? or are you ming or timothy?

wat i know is Advertlets pays more to me.
SUPPORT U.. Josh....

For me... I don't care. Nuffnang or Advertlets, all I want hahaha... But frankly, Advertlets pays me more and I talk more about Advertlets coz they have things that relate to me such as the coming event. As for Nuffnang, so far nothing is related to me, how am I going to talk about them right? I don't take sides. :) We bloggers can sama sama earn money enough.

youdonthavetochooseOneorEither or Josh or whoever you are, I thought people grew out of sock puppeting when they were 14? And just to remind you, from what I've seen Tim and Ming are honest and grown up enough not to have to pretend to be someone else and praise themselves in comments. They comment in a straight forward manner using their real names.

And what's this nonsense about bloggers getting short-changed by Nuffnang? I see plenty of default banners from Advertlets too. It's a small space anyway and it might have been taken up with Adsense which was earning people $5USD a month.

As for me, I use both Advertlets and Nuffnang and believe everyone should do the same, whichever one pays consistently will inevitably win in the end, why be immature and take sides? Be smart and don't put your eggs in one basket.

All this petty squabbling is a little pathetic, stop the drama and let us all make some money.

wow you know what. i just got home and can't even be bothered to read everything written cos i'm so damn tired and stressed out about work. but i'll force myself to.

hilineindustries:

"A lot of people feel that the Nuffnang folks are a lot more down-to-earth and approachable than the caustic Advertlets. Advertlets is always attacking Nuffnang, when both can exist together to expand the market."

I have no beef against Nuffnang. I was stating my displeasure over particular facts in the article. Though i cannot vouch for sure all the techy things involved, I for one, am all for two companies that are doing the same thing.

It creates competition which then spurs both parties to strive to improve, hence for the benefit of bloggers.

"While Joyce allegedly has 1,000 respondents to polls, what percentage is that of total unique readers? Site meter below has 138,117 visitors since 2004. What are the percentage of responders on other blogs? No one said online polls were garbage. But you CANNOT claim polls are accurate without better proof."

The sitemeter below only counts the comments page la -_-
My counter (CQcounter) is on my main page, been there since April '06.
Green button, at the bottom of all the links.

youdonthavetochooseOneorEither: No fool, I'm saying that no one company should keep on attacking the other and that the 2 companies can exist together. The 1700 figure was mentioned by a blogger somewhere after talking with Ming. You picked on ONE figure in my entire comment but disregarded everything else?

Joyce: Exactly, why is Advertlets always making spurious comparisons, just do your best lah, no need to kutuk people without basis. Orhhhhh I see. Wah, 1.4 million hits since April '06! Sorry if I kaypoh'ed on your blog, yeah. But some of the stuff here (not by you, by Josh and some visitors) is just so salah.com.

> Josh said: "Why you chosen to highlight their inferior method or claim that we have *shock* similiar features is regrettable."

Inferior or superior, depends on not what the creator thinks, but who the consumer chooses in the end.

> Josh said: "You can't say "people don't care" about technical features, especially for something like this, and then leave it out because you think they don't."

Don't put words in my mouth or twist them around, Josh. I NEVER said that people do not care about technical features. What I said was people do not really care about the petty details like a blow-by-blow account on exactly how you implemented your tech/when you launch your service -- whether a day, 8 days, 2 weeks, last Christmas after or before your competitor. Who really cares who launches first or who copies who? What people care about is whether the service/product actually works for them! And quite apparently that when the launch of Advertlets was rushed out... it did not really work, according to its own users.

And for the record, I'm fully aware that the big boys are conducting online polls as a means as well -- but if you haven't noticed, they do it in an environment that is more regulated than Advertlets which actually accepts multiple poll submissions from the same person in the same poll/day (resulting in garbage data).

Do not accuse me of taking things personally, Josh. If there's only one personal reason why I'd be miffed, it would be because you had to call me up and waste my time. The only thing I regret is why I did not just hang up when you started whining. And here, you are wasting my time again. Of course, I could choose not to comment, but I couldn't just let you accuse me simply, right?

Come to think of it, let's not waste anymore time. Time would be so much better spent elsewhere -- like improving a product/service, instead of slandering a competitor(s)... or picking fights with the media. Seriously.

Sincerely,
Christy Lee

aiyah why so ma fan. just see who outgrows who lor.
then the bigger one takes over the small one. in the end, one big happy family also :P

the industry is not that big, u guys might work together in future.
so make frens, not enemy. seriously.

true that jasper spiller.