Sephraem (1:17:31 PM): is it possible to perform selfless acts of evil?
Sephraem (1:17:35 PM): i think it is
Sephraem (1:17:40 PM): it obviously is
Sephraem (1:18:20 PM): (wishing i could remember my train of thought properly now)
Sephraem (1:18:34 PM): but the idea that selflessness is a good thing is so prevalent
Sephraem (1:18:54 PM): furthermore, is it possible to be truly selfless?
moritheil (1:19:35 PM): Why is it?
moritheil (1:19:41 PM): The only selfless evil I've ever seen are the Unseelie
Sephraem (1:19:48 PM): to do so requires such a sacrifice of 'self-awareness' that a sentient creature can surely not succeed
moritheil (1:19:59 PM): no, I think it's entirely possible
Sephraem (1:20:09 PM): how so?
moritheil (1:20:11 PM): I mean, one can criticize people who do things because they want to be better people.
moritheil (1:20:17 PM): But I would say that's enough to be selfless.
Sephraem (1:20:23 PM): in what sense?
moritheil (1:21:09 PM): Well, for example, if a man gives money to a beggar because he feels that someone should lend the beggar a hand, and not for personal benefit
moritheil (1:21:18 PM): I would say that that's a selfless act.
Sephraem (1:21:31 PM): is it, though?
moritheil (1:21:36 PM): Why not?
moritheil (1:21:56 PM): In order to be useful, the distinction between selfish and selfless ought to be one that can be made.
Sephraem (1:22:05 PM): indeed
Sephraem (1:22:15 PM): i am this man
Sephraem (1:22:18 PM): i have money
Sephraem (1:22:23 PM): i see the beggar
Sephraem (1:22:32 PM): the beggar has no money
Sephraem (1:22:46 PM): i feel i should give the beggar money - why?
moritheil (1:22:50 PM): If you help a beggar because you simply feel it's the best way to make them shut up, and you truly don't care if they live or die, then helping the man seems to be a selfish act.
Sephraem (1:23:18 PM): if i see a beggar, part of me feels a pang of... something
moritheil (1:23:18 PM): Of course, real actions and motives tend to be a mix of the two.
Sephraem (1:23:29 PM): i suspect guilt is a large part of that pang
Sephraem (1:23:42 PM): i have something he doesn't (probably lots of things)
moritheil (1:23:53 PM): But I don't think acting on empathy is automatically selfish. That's a very bitter view of the world.
Sephraem (1:23:55 PM): it alleviates my feeling of guilt to give him money
Sephraem (1:24:01 PM): isn't it awful?
moritheil (1:24:16 PM): No, but then your guilt served a purpose, didn't it?
Sephraem (1:24:28 PM): yes
moritheil (1:24:46 PM): So what's wrong?
Sephraem (1:24:48 PM): and i did something good, but my motive was selfish
Sephraem (1:24:54 PM): i feel better
Sephraem (1:25:03 PM): that's the reason i did what i did
moritheil (1:25:06 PM): I mean, granted, to be most divine you would always feel other peoples' pain and act without any guilt to spur you on.
moritheil (1:25:25 PM): But I feel reasonably sure that we all fall short of that, at least most of the time.
Sephraem (1:25:31 PM): i know i do
moritheil (1:25:48 PM): If you say everyone is selfish, then, that's not a very useful definition.
Sephraem (1:25:55 PM): no
Sephraem (1:25:59 PM): it's not
moritheil (1:26:00 PM): In terms of functional divide.
moritheil (1:26:37 PM): I posit that a hierarchy exists in terms of recognizing acts as selfless.
moritheil (1:27:21 PM): To give with complete grace and freedom is most blessed. To give because of guilt may be considered less so, but it is surely better than not giving - assuming the giving is good.
moritheil (1:27:45 PM): May I thump the Bible for a second?
Sephraem (1:27:57 PM): feel free
moritheil (1:28:43 PM): Oh, this is incidental
moritheil (1:28:47 PM): I'm going to have to post again :P
Sephraem (1:28:58 PM):
moritheil (1:33:35 PM): "Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." Mark 10:21
Sephraem (1:33:56 PM): just a mo - i'll go grab a bible
Sephraem (1:34:30 PM): got my niv
moritheil (1:34:30 PM): Now, interestingly, preceding that, we have
"a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to enherit eternal life?' "
moritheil (1:34:44 PM): It seems apparent that this man wants to enter Heaven.
moritheil (1:34:58 PM): (preceding passage is about the Kingdom.)
moritheil (1:35:16 PM): So, you could argue that the works he does are not motivated by true selflessness but by a selfish desire to be saved.
moritheil (1:35:33 PM): However, he is nevertheless told to do these things.
moritheil (1:35:55 PM): The basis of good and evil, then, is not selflessness and selfishness alone.
moritheil (1:36:15 PM): We have all heard that 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.'
Sephraem (1:36:16 PM): absolutely
Sephraem (1:36:26 PM): and again, absolutely
moritheil (1:37:53 PM): So, if you accept an Abrahmic authority, the question of whether or not giving to assuage one's own guilt is justified is answered thus - not in terms of selfishness or selflessness, but what is good to other people.
moritheil (1:38:25 PM): Anyhow, that's my take on it. Selah.
Sephraem (1:38:26 PM): and so we come to 'do unto others...'
moritheil (1:39:59 PM): "Do unto others" is interesting, but for some reason I prefer the interpretation of the Rabbi who said, "That which is hateful to yourself, do not do to your neighbor."
moritheil (1:40:20 PM): I say this because "Do unto others" has a few strange parts if taken literally.
Sephraem (1:40:41 PM): is it possible to think too much, do you think?
moritheil (1:40:51 PM): Absolutely.