Ok so what does the bible say about the "final" coming of Christ? And when can i look forward to that? The day after tomorrow? But preacher thats what you said two days ago... sorry just had to do that one.
Anyways all i have to say is a believer doesn't create redemtion. Redemtion creates a believer. thats me because i was once an atheist then my father showed me Christs redemtion of the world. The recreation of my spirit. I am holy and perfect. while you may think i am self-righteous. I know that you are holy and righteous too. The lamb now lays with the lion. And no one has the right to tell you different and yet they do. I just wanted you to kno that. I want the world to know that.
Chris
Posted 11/1/2005 at 5:52 PM by heaven4allworeligion
Well, Por, in case you didn't know the sinful flesh of our bodies is dead. Your flesh is dead. while your soul and spirit remain. I'm not sure if you know the difference between soul and spirit. The spirit is the part of you that ascends to heaven while your soul is the part of you that decides actions and controls the mind.
I could stand here and throw points at you left and right. Remember you have done away with part of law so all prophecy must be fulfilled. I mean geez Christ said this himself.
Matthew 5:18 (King James Version)
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot(or doting of an i) or one tittle (crossing of the t)(in todays terms)shall in no wise pass from the law, till all (prophecy) be fulfilled.
So if you really have faith in the bible you should still be making animal sacrifices for your sins and having the priest do cerimonies. Just look.
Chris
Posted 11/1/2005 at 6:08 PM by heaven4allworeligion
What the Bible says about the final coming of Christ is that no one knows the hour or the day, not even the Son of Man (Jesus in His earthly body). So it may
be the day after tomorrow, or it may be another two thousand years. We don't know, and can't know, until we see God face to face.
Show me a lamb laying with a lion in their natural habitat without being torn to pieces. This world is still under the sinful curse. Yes, we are redeemed, we are cleansed from sin, our will and our heart's desire now long to follow God, but we are still tempted by the sin that is around us. We are neither holy nor perfect, but are covered by the holiness and perfection of CHRIST. We are no longer enslaved to sin, but that does not mean we are incapable of it. We are forgiven, we are justified, but we are not glorified until heaven.
"Your flesh is dead." By that do you mean my physical body? I doubt you could seriously say that. Or do you mean my sinful nature? If so, why am I tempted to lie and to cheat? Why do I show disrespect for my parents? Why do I entertain sinful thoughts? Why do I constantly place my own desires and ambitions before God's? Is this perfection???
Furthermore, I am not saying that the law has passed away, but that it is fulfilled. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Yes, sacrifice must be made for sin. But no longer do we need to offer endless animal sacrifices -- He WAS the Ultimate Sacrifice, the omnipotent payment for our sin. He fulfilled that part of the law.
To my knowledge, I have not done away with any of the law. Parts have been changed or fulfilled, but not dispensed with. Ceremonial uncleanness -- well, if you touch blood or a sick person or a dead animal, you either wash or reap the consequences! The death penalty for murder, rape and adultery -- makes sense! These are crimes that cannot be repaid, and the death penalty serves to send the criminal to the "higher court" where he will be judged by God. The ceremonial clothing and the ceremonial feasts -- I don't think we have to be concerned about them. There is a difference between ceremonial ritual and tradition, and God's LAWS. Did the Israelites sin in building a temple for God when He only gave instructions for the tabernacle? The tabernacle was a temporary dwelling-place, but He gave no other instructions. Yet He blessed them for it. Why?
Posted 11/1/2005 at 9:26 PM by por_la_cruz
your hypocrisy exceeds you. you know the bible says not to pray in public. in fact it says you should go into your closet and pray.
And Romans 6 is perfect. but you are so blinded by the hypocrites of Christianity.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
does a servant have a say in who his master is? no. Is a servant only as good as his master? yes. You are a servant of righteousness.
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
note it says BABTISM INTO DEATH. just pointing out that everyone is babtised and not in water. and now we walk in the newness of life. freedom from law.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
This is comparable to Genesis 11-13. This is the only way we are like Christ. b/c he made us like him. no free will involved in case you didnt notice.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
we were planted in death with Christ so we are dead. Now this sounds obsured but remember we also rose with Christ from death.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
see that^. bam let sin not control your mortal body. Sin doesn't control your human body anymore. you are a servant of righteousness.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
now it doesnt get any simpler than that. sin doesnt control your life. i just can't stress that enough.
Romans 8: 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
If you are still in flesh you could never please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Note this does not say the spirit IN Christ but the spirit OF Christ. Christians have changed this one word making every thing they see unholy. You have many things of you in which every man has. You have the Spirit of Christ in you and every man has the Spirit Of Christ in them. Deny all you like but it is truth.
If you are reading anything but a King James Bible. QUIT right now. For all these other bibles have been modified to see you as unholy and unpure. The hypocrisy will ruin your mortal life. I wish to free you from the ruined. So many will be dumbfounded by the hypocrisy of Christianity. I myself can hardly bear your own hypocrisy. So I offer you truth. Truth that will do away with your hypocrisy.
Every man has his seat in heaven whether he believe it or not. No man can deny the seat. For he is forcibly put there by God himself. Free will is a blind lie of Christianity. No man has a free will. Of course by will at this point i mean Will to control his Spirit.
The son of man... wow that was just plain blind. Jesus is the son of GOD not man. The son of man is us. And of course we didnt know when we would be freed from sin. Hell, you still dont see it. And that second statement is a statement of hypocrisy. You defy yourself still. Unless i read wrong. And not physical skin. the sinful skin is dead like that of a snake. Your sinful skin is dead. Your physical skin still exist and gives you choices in hopes of you making good ones. And if you fullfill a need do you still have that need? God Forbid. Remember it not only says he would not do away with law but also the prophets. He FULFILLED these so there is no longer a need to try to fulfill them. If you fill a glass it needs not be filled more as it is already full.
Ha not done away with law. Not only can you not do away with it but i can not be CHANGED either. Besides you dont follow sacrificial law. Not even ceremonial. Just moral. That is all you follow.
Jesus is not a choice. The deal between Abraham and God did not involve man for a reason. Man could not fulfill anything. Remember God told Abraham if he wanted to get into heaven he had to be perfect. Do you know what he did? He fell flat on his face. I personally understand why. No man is perfect. But all that were before Christ after Christ's death burial and resurrection all the people that had been put in hell were brought up and rejudged by the new standards. They all are now in heaven.
I can whole heartedly tell you that Jesus is not coming back. Throw up anything you want it's not gonna happen. Remember 2001. They said Jesus was coming back then.... But did he. No. He is never coming back because there is no need. ALL prophecy has been fulfilled. I can PROMISE this. Without a doubt. Why not make some money off this too. I'll bet you 1,000,000,000$ he's not coming back.
And the lion is God and the lamb is Jesus. Jesus now sits by his Fathers side so the lion lays with a lamb where they both are naturally at. Heaven.
Chris
Posted 11/2/2005 at 5:08 PM by heaven4allworeligion
"12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
see that^. bam let sin not control your mortal body. Sin doesn't control your human body anymore. you are a servant of righteousness.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
now it doesnt get any simpler than that. sin doesnt control your life. i just can't stress that enough."
You keep changing "let not" and "shall not" to "does not" which is completely different. "Don't let sin have control over you. It must not." That does not mean it can not. If you allow it to, it will. The point is, don't allow it to.
Jesus called Himself "The Son of Man". It was the contemporary equivalent of today's "Yours truly". It also emphasized the fact that He is 100% God and 100% man -- the God of the universe conceived and born in a human body.
I agree that they were wrong in 2001 to say Jesus would return, just as they were wrong in the mid-19th century; in Y2K; and will probably be many more times. "No man knows the hour or the day." Just because people made a wrong guess as to when it would happen does not mean that it will never happen.
All prophesy has not been fulfilled. Where do you see the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:9? "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."
I understand your analogy of the Lion and the Lamb, and it is a good one; but I don't think that it is contextually accurate. What do you see represented by all the animals in these passages?
Isaiah 11:6-8: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den."
Isaiah 65:25: "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."
You have some very interesting theories, but I take strong issue with some of them. At the same time, can we please debate this peacefully and reasonably without shouting or flinging labels? If you have reason to believe that I am behaving hypocritically, I encourage you to bring it to my attention, but "with gentleness and respect". Show me where I err to help me rather than to point fingers.
Posted 11/2/2005 at 6:03 PM by por_la_cruz
sorry i just think of all religions as hypocritical. You know an ALL-LOVING God. Well that's a worthless statement if he's still sending people to hell. That's not ALL-LOVING. Then a religious man will turn around and say if you don't believe this then you're going to hell. That is just purely dumb. People have gone insane because of religion. There was a man that got into a little car accident. No big damage or anything but he soon after started thinking "If Jesus won't save me from that, what else won't he save me from?" He ended up in an insane hospital. All because of religion. And even when my aunt died my grandparents told them that they could have prevented it if they had acted better. They had devoted their beliefs to God and Jesus. I mean it's just insane, religion is. I just can't stand it.
Yes, prophesy has been completed. Jesus' death on the cross was the FULFILMENT of all other sacrifices. The sacrifices pointed toward a coming Savior, Who was Jesus.
Posted 11/1/2005 at 8:56 AM by por_la_cruz
Obviously, not ALL prophesy has been completed, or we wouldn't be here anymore. Christ has yet to come again. Still, many prophesies HAVE been fulfilled.
Posted 11/1/2005 at 8:57 AM by por_la_cruz
I see pure hypocrisy right there. I copied and pasted so nothing was changed I promise. well there it is. I have a hard time respecting someone that would change their words so quickly.
That stuff of lions is all a metaphor. Just reitterating a fact. Actually i do see the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:9. We know that God is ALL-LOVING. No one has done harm on His mountain(heaven)
All the animals... hmmm... Well I'm not sure if I'm coming up with the right number here but is it 12 animals? well then that's quite simple. The Twelve Tribes. If I've miscounted then im not quite sure.
Chris
Posted 11/2/2005 at 7:12 PM by heaven4allworeligion
You're not getting it. Some prophesy has been completed. But not all prophesy. You can have drunk from a glass of water, but not have drunk all the water. See the difference? I don't think I've ever said that no prophesy has been completed, nor that all prophesy has been completed. I believe that some prophesy has been fulfilled and that some prophesy has yet to be fulfilled. Somehow you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say, and I don't know of any other way to communicate it to you.
I am truly very sorry that you have been exposed to the worse side of some Christians. But not every Christian is a Bible-banging, hell-threatening, red-faced preacher. Not every Christian believes the (false) concept that we are saved by works, or that bad things only happen to bad people. In fact, "religion" is good. James 1:27: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." We are to defend the defenseless, help the helpless, and grow in Christ. That is true religion.
Furthermore, God can be all-loving and still punish people. Have you ever been punished by someone in authority? Does that mean that they no longer loved or cared for you? Absolutely not. The punishment is BECAUSE they love or care for you and don't want to see you damage yourself. It is also because in breaking rules, you endanger other people.
Hell, as I understand it (and this could be another whole debate), is not a place of physical torment. It is a place of spiritual anguish, where those who would not turn to God to have their sins forgiven must live with the punishment. The punishment is infinite because every sin is infinite -- it is a defiance of the principles and the very essence of the Infinite God. Sin is, in a way, a negation of God and His qualities. (This is why it is impossible for an omnipotent [all-powerful] God to sin: it would mean being what He isn't -- and if He did "sin", it would no longer be sin because He was doing it. But of course He never changes His principles; that was purely hypothetical.) Since every tiny sin has infinite ramifications, it must have eternal consequences. Nothing stained by sin is allowed in God's presence. But God is everywhere, even in hell, and that is the essence of hell: a place where His wrath is eternally and unquenchably inflamed against His enemies.
But to those who accept His free offer of grace and mercy, Jesus imputes His perfect righteousness so that the sinner is covered by Jesus' payment for sin. Jesus endured hell on the cross. God's wrath was raised against Him for all the sins that you or I or any other of His elect would ever commit. And, yes, the punishment was eternal -- for it was laid upon the etrernal God, though in His human form. He suffered hell for us and in doing so removed the punishment for our sins. Now we are covered by His righteousness and will one day live forever with Him in heaven -- eternity with God, but in His love rather than His wrath.
I don't know if any of this is understandable or if I've obfuscated the whole issue, but hopefully I've cleared up one or two points and opened up discussion for some others.
Peace in Christ.
Posted 11/3/2005 at 12:12 AM by por_la_cruz
* For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
So then why do most believers still place their confidence before God in their own obedience. I believe it is because they have yet to hear the truth of verse 4. Most teachers I was taught under said we are still clearly under obligation to the moral law. Believing is taking your confidence and trust out of a law and obligation based righteousness, and placing it in Christ's work on the cross and his resurrection. So by the definition of this verse, believing is evidenced when you put an end to trusting in the law for your righteousness. It seems to me that telling people they need to believe in order to be redeemed is another attempt at relating to God through a form of law. I.e.. You do this and get God to do that.
* For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
According to this verse, law based righteousness is about what one does and how one lives. Sounds like most of what we have had passed off on us in church as a prescription for relating to God is of the "righteousness which is of the law" variety.
* But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
* Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
It seems to me the point of verses 6 - 8 is that faith righteousness does not whip up a fresh batch of redemption every time someone believes. Or, in other words, redemption does not need to be achieved all over again.
* But what saith it? The word (of completed faith righteousness is) nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
The "word of faith" which we preach that Paul refers to is the word of faith righteousness as contrasted with the word of law based righteousness.
* That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
The word that one confesses is that Jesus raised us up together with Him at the same time He was raised up. Confessing with One's mouth that Jesus is Lord is to agree with the fact of all men's redemption at the cross. Contrary to what has been usually taught regarding this verse, we do not make him Lord through a commitment of our obedience. God made Jesus Lord. We experience salvation when we transfer our trust from the law and place it in the finished work of the cross.
* For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Until the heart believes and the mouth confesses, a person is still for all intents and purposes still under law and condemnation experientially. Remember the context here is getting devout people with a zeal for God saved from trusting in the law. To say that a man moves from an unrighteous state to a righteous state before God at the time of believing is to say that his works and deeds are partly responsible for his salvation. My heart stumbles at that one. My heart sees it that when the heart assimilates the story of the gospel, that you have been made righteous before God, and believes that message, then a profound change occurs aligning one's belief system with a previously established fact. He has "believed unto righteousness." This is a true statement of his experience being aligned with God's view and opinion of him since the cross.
* For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
And whoever trusts in the law shall be ashamed. (Certainly is a true statement in my life.)
* For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This applies to whosoever because all have been redeemed and their acceptance of that fact will trigger a profound freedom in their heart.
* How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Does believe in him refer to believing in what your faith coupled with God's grace can achieve. Or is it referring to trusting in a finished work that you could not achieve or participate in?
and how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Very few people have been presented with the concept that God settled his wrath for sin at the cross. This I believe is exactly what Isaiah was referring to in his phrase: the gospel of peace. Telling people of the latest and improved plan that you can participate in to obtain righteousness before God by believing falls so short of the designation: "glad tidings of good things." Like I mentioned before, the faith that I achieved with the gospel I heard was that Jesus would help me to please God and do better, and in turn escape hell. The good news I heard previously left me focused on myself. A plan that you must participate in order to achieve righteousness personally doesn't fit the definition of news, let alone good news.
* But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
It says who has believed our report. It does not say who has submitted to our program. Israel with their eyes on a law based attempt at righteousness could not believe that they were already righteous (the report of the gospel) Obedience to the gospel is not conforming morally to new plan from God based on Jesus example at the cross, but rather submitting oneself to God's declaration that men have been made righteous apart from the law.
* So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (the gospel of peace - the story of Christ's death, burial and resurrection) 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (KJV)
Let me wrap up by saying that the above is "as near as I can tell." It could be wrong. But I think it does provide a logical framework to at least present another possible paradigm to compare with the one that we have held to without question. I am stuck on this thought that the gospel is truly the story that addresses man's deepest needs and longings. Man wants to be righteous. God made him that way. All of his attempts at it, including the participatory plans of men's religions, have hopelessly failed and continue to fail. Our models of compliance based "faith" still produce death. Thank God for it, for now we are afforded the opportunity look beyond ourselves and be truly and gloriously saved.
© Gospelogic.com
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
It doesn't say Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of believers. it says the world.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
So Jesus came to undo the devil's work, all evil. But if the Devil is allowed to lead millions to hell how has Jesus undone any of his work?
Get the point yet?
Chris
Posted 11/3/2005 at 3:45 PM by heaven4allworeligion
"So then why do most believers still place their confidence before God in their own obedience."
Because they are sinners. Plain and simple.
"seems to me that telling people they need to believe in order to be redeemed is another attempt at relating to God through a form of law. I.e.. You do this and get God to do that."
Well, they do need to believe in order to be redeemed. That is the clear and concise meaning of the text that you are now slaughtering. It cannot be rendered any other way then "that believeth." Man has to believe. However, God is the one that gives man the grace to be able to believe-- and our act of obedience is only through God.
"It seems to me the point of verses 6 - 8 is that faith righteousness does not whip up a fresh batch of redemption every time someone believes. Or, in other words, redemption does not need to be achieved all over again."
Your theology is all screwed up. Christ died as to obtain Salvation for His Elect. He does this by dying for our sins and it is effected by God working in us to become believers. You are right by saying, "whip up a fresh batch of redemption," but no one believes that. No one has said that. You have no clue what the beliefs are of whom you are debating. So 1. Educate yourself and 2. Know the beliefs of who you are talking to so that you don't make ignorant assumptions.
"The word that one confesses is that Jesus raised us up together with Him at the same time He was raised up."
This cannot be found biblically.
"Confessing with One's mouth that Jesus is Lord is to agree with the fact of all men's redemption at the cross."
Neither can you find this in scripture.
" Contrary to what has been usually taught regarding this verse, we do not make him Lord through a commitment of our obedience. God made Jesus Lord."
This isn't usually taught. No Christian teacher teaches this,
"We experience salvation when we transfer our trust from the law and place it in the finished work of the cross."
True. But here you become a hypocrite. Which is quite laughable after the display you put on against Por la Cruz. Earlier on you said that having to believe is another type of law-- or another work. What would the action of transferring trust from law to Grace be? Well, it would be an action. It would be another type of "law" by your standards.
"Until the heart believes and the mouth confesses, a person is still for all intents and purposes still under law and condemnation*END* "
If you would stop there, you wouldn't be a heretic.
"To say that a man moves from an unrighteous state to a righteous state before God at the time of believing is to say that his works and deeds are partly responsible for his salvation. "
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