William Lane Craig weighs in on a radio program here: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/RF_audio_video/Other_clips/craig_edwards_on_athiesm.mp3

Keith,

I've really been struggling with this.

Lately, I've been reading (setting my primary focus towards) Donald Miller's book "Blue Like Jazz".

Aside from that, I've been casually going through...

"Searching For God Knows What" by Donald Miller
"Candide" by Voltaire
"A Man Without A Country" by Kurt Vonnegut
"The Catcher In The Rye" by J.D. Salinger
"On The Road" by Jack Kerouac
"For One More Day" by Mitch Albom
"The Lovely Bones" by Alice Sebold
"Can Man Live Without God" by Ravi Zacharias
"The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis
"How Should We Then Live" by Francis Schaeffer
"The End of Faith" by Sam Harris
"Letter To A Christian Nation" by Sam Harris
"The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins

And beyond this,

I've really been hurting for those who have lost their loved ones in VA Tech and even those closer to my home in Texas that you may not have heard of. There was this girl named Meaghan Bosch who was found dead from a drug over dose in Waco. And those that I see on the side of the road, when I go to downtown Dallas on the Dart Train and see everyone and the way they live.

I want to say that atheism is wrong because from the start it establishes a moral standard in stating that religion must be destroyed for the betterment of mankind. I would further argue that knowledge comes through experience/inquiry of self or experience/inquiry of others, and if one sole person is not the bearer of a moral standard, that either no moral standard exists, or either one exists, but rather exists outside of ourselves.

And I believe that atheism is wrong. I have been reading atheistic authors and I stand even firmer in my believing that they are wrong now that I am reading what they have to say.

But I feel like I want to say that for reasons that I am smarter than them, that I don't really care about God, I really care about my ego and proving them wrong so I can feel better about myself. It seems to me like logic is a game that has its boundaries allowing anyone willing enough to talk themselves into a box. From what I can see, all logical arguments begin as an emotion, in our heart; and we use logic and the rhetoric of man to justify the emotion in our hearts towards man in order to make what is in our hearts "suitable".

Perhaps I'm not making any sense;

But if you do understand, I am worried for myself and for those I love that Jesus is used in our society to our own ends, to boost our egos and make ourselves feel better.

Is it irresponsible for me, as a believer in Jesus, to give up on being concerned on proving atheists wrong but instead to ask Christ to show me how to live His Love towards them?

So, that's what's been on my mind lately.

Thanks for hearing me out, Keith.



[ JT ]

Yeah, I heard about that debate and expected it to get cringe-worthy real fast. You confirmed my suspicion.

To vgamer7289: Good question - and though Keith will surely post a better answer - I'd like to point out that questioning your motivations is important in apologetics, but pride isn't the only possibility. Ideally, apologetics aims to remove barriers to belief so that unbelievers will be more ready to hear the Gospel, which is ultimately the most loving them you could do for them.

nice post...i agree with your assessment of the debate

Hi vgamer. I suppose that you are subtlely trying to tell me that I spend too much time disproving atheists and too little time showing Christ? Perhaps you have been reading too much Donald Miller---no offense.

First things first: logic is the science of necessary inference. We use it to relate ideas and deduce conclusions from other premises. If we use valid logic, true premises will always lead to true conclusions. Its really not an emotional matter. Grammar---a key component to language and communication---involves logic at almost every turn. For example, you write:

"I've really been hurting for those who have lost their loved ones in VA Tech and even those closer to my home in Texas that you may not have heard of."

Here you have used the logical operator "and" to tell me that you've been hurting for BOTH things. Had you not used AND I would not know if the VA tech incident and Meghan's incident were the same incident or if you meant or, nor, not-or, not-and, exclusively and, exclusively or, etc... what a mess! So I encourage you not to denigrate logic while simultaneously using it. :)

Furthermore, to think logically is to think biblically. I can say this because logic presupposes the existence of the Bible. We can justify our use of logic and the laws of logic because God's nature manifests the laws of logic, and He has revealed this truth to us.

I would encourage you to approach tough matters with the heart and mind of Christ, not just the heart. Christ used very intricate syllogisms all the time in His dealings with the pharisees and Sadducees. His arguments were valid and meaningful because He was logical, not because He was merely compassionate and loving.

Andy (smarterthanhelooks) is right: the most loving thing we can do is present the gospel, but sometimes we have to first pull down strongholds and cast down imaginations (2 Cor. 10:4-5) in order to make the truth clear. This requires sound argumentation, which requires true premises and good logic.

I hope that helps!

Keith

i say this with every possible courtesy, and i do hope you learn from it..

way to sound like a butthead to the guy who commented before me.

seriously, what is it you fundamentalists? whatever happened to His own words, like "love thy neighbor" or "do not seek wrath"... why do you all insist on shoving your own ideas on even your own bretheren? furthermore, when we offer calm and collected responses, why do you always dissect them and find some reason to criticize?

i repeat what raven said before me, slightly edited: Once you calm down, think more openly to the ideas of others to UNDERSTAND THEM, stop taking everything in the context of your own biblical interpretation, and learn some manners, then you will be a good witness for Jesus. Until then, you drive people away from Him, in His name. Don't you think He's had enough of that crap?

Intriguing, peacefulraven. I was liberal like you and then read the Bible for myself and became a literalist fundamentalist... funny how two people can do the same thing and come to totally different conclusions. Apparently testimony doesn't validate one's beliefs, then!

Are you so full of hubris to limit God to your watch, to make His day conform to your 24 hour day?

Why would I be full of hubris if I took God at His word? You admit that you don't take God at His word, therefore you think you are the authority, which is at the heart of all sin: a desire for autonomy, just like Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God's word and decided that they and not God determined truth.

What if God DID use a day of 100 million years?

Then I guess the earth would be in the vicinity of 700 million years old. But we don't live in that world, so who cares?

For someone you is so letteralist in your views, you forget that God Himself said that His day was as a 1000 years.

Actually, you are ripping that verse completely out of context. Read the entire chapter, or at least this: 2 Peter 3:1-9 Peter is addressing the arrogant mockers (like yourself) who refuse to take God at His word and therefore do not accept the Second Coming. But God's promise is not slack, and for God a day is like thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. Therefore it is no matter whether arrogant men think that God has failed to return. He will return in the proper time.

Also, I like this part in particular: scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

These scoffers reject the catastrophe of Noah's Flood and believe that "all things continue as they were"---probably a reference to uniformitarianism (and thus an old earth).

Finally, if you are going to be consistent with your "day is like a thousand years" claim then you would also have to say that Jonah was in the belly of the whale for 3000 years and Christ was in the tomb for 3000 years---therefore He is still the grave and not risen and hence Christianity is a joke; see 1 Cor. 15 for Paul's argument along this line.

If you believe that God wrote every letter and word in the Bible, then you are forced to accept that verse, too, and that means the creation in Genesis 1 may have taken 6,000 years instead of 144 hours.

So the earth is 12,000 years old instead of 6000? That's a far cry from 4.5 billion as the secularists say, so you still have a long way to go!

seriously, what is it you fundamentalists? whatever happened to His own words, like "love thy neighbor" or "do not seek wrath"... why do you all insist on shoving your own ideas on even your own bretheren? furthermore, when we offer calm and collected responses, why do you always dissect them and find some reason to criticize?

Shiningvibrantlygreen, is that your interpretation? If so, then stop shoving it down my throat, you hypocrite.

Furthermore, Christ said, SANCTIFY THEM WITH THY TRUTH, THY WORD IS TRUTH (John 17:17). He also said that "scripture cannot be broken." Christianity isn't a buffet, you don't get to pick and choose which parts to obey. Christ's teachings are doctrine and doctrine must be protected (Romans 16:17), therefore you are simultaneously attacking me for focusing on true doctrine while commanding me to obey true doctrine. Your theology is a complete mess.

hey smarty pants!

:p

why dont we all try to get along, shall we?

you have your fundamentalist views and peaceful raven can have his out of the box views.

the only thing that is being debated here is everyone's pride, and feelings.

im not saying anyone is wrong or right, honestly i dont give a rats ass because im sick of people fighting over who's interpretation of the bible is right or wrong, how old the universe is, and what god did or didnt do.

how do we know for sure anyway, god is god. hes the ONLY one thats been around the entire time.

the main thing is, god loves us. jesus told us to love, and he died out of love for us.

if we could all just get over ourselves and our feelings and pride, maybe we could show love for everyone else instead of ridiculing them and trying to prove people wrong.

i love you, i love peacefulraven, i love the atheist down the street and the muslims in the middle east.

i dont care what anyone believes or doesnt, and i dont think god does either.

xoxoxo

elena

whoever is right here, or whoever is wrong, i think we can all see the irony in the fact it is the Prince of Peace we are ripping each other apart over.

and, that's all i'm gonna say about that.

in other news, kirk cameron really bothers me. i find him comparable, but less comical, to stephen baldwin.

I was ne'er so proud as to have failed that worldview weekend quiz. scwned.

Have you heard of Paul Manata?

I think if the RRS was more brave (they did say on nightline previous to this debate on another show that they will debate anyone), a Paul Manata vs. RRS would have been good

Esp. since it would have a presuppositional bent...

Something came to mind while I was reading here...

XfridayxnightXcherryxpieX: "how do we know for sure anyway, god is god. hes the ONLY one thats been around the entire time."

Followers of Christ are expected to be able to know the truth of God ... past, present and future truth. The Spirit of Truth is given to those who believe and those who believe need to simply turn to Him and He will guide them into all truth and will disclose what is to come (John 16:12).

Disciples (or followers) of Christ are called to walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:6), to have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16), to empty themselves becoming bond-servants and humbling themselves becoming obedient in all ways to the Father (Phil 2:5-7). Jesus only did what He saw His Father doing and that is how disciples are called to live as well. His followers are to know the Father's will: to transform their minds to know His will, through constant use of spiritual milk they will be able to discern good from evil (the ability to discern good from evil is the meat), and are warned to be careful how they walk as they need to understand what is the will of the Lord.

Some people think that there are mysteries where there are none; Jesus was the mystery and that mystery has been fully revealed. Faith in Jesus Christ and learning to listen to the Spirit are of utmost importance in being who God the Father has called you to be. We can know the past "for sure" only through the Holy Spirit.

One other thing that I have to share...

XfridayxnightXcherryxpieX: "the main thing is, god loves us. jesus told us to love, and he died out of love for us."

Love rejoices in the truth, but not in evil (1 Cor 13:6). Love does not support evil. It is very important to realize what it means to love as Jesus loved. Jesus worked toward loving the world into heaven, but I'm coming to realize that I was raised to love the world straight into hell. We should have the name of Jesus on our lips as a constant part of our lives. When Jesus spoke and interacted, His primary goal and focus was to reveal the Father even though the world would reject it. Loving the way Jesus told us to love did not mean to not tell people that they are going to hell or that they are following the wrong path. Loving the way Jesus told us to love means sharing the Good News of eternal life and freedom from the bonds of this world with all those around us, which includes shining light, in love and humility, on wayward paths when we see them.

I'm not accusing anyone of loving incorrectly, but I am pointing out that loving the way Jesus loved is different from the way the average "Christian" or follower of Christ loves.

looks like most of your comments are irrelevent to your post. I wasnt aware martin bashir was a Christian, but its good to know. As to your being accused of being a fundamentalist, I find most of your accusers to be hypocritical in their nature of presenting "love". They seem to be led by their own spirits, mixing their own idealogy and beliefs and superstitions,  rather than the "Holy Spirit". . All the more reason to believe in a God, and a Word that doesnt change, which itself was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

XfridayxnightXcherryxpieX:

I think you'll find that my arguments are objective and not subjective, as opposed to the emotional diatribes of others present. We are commanded to guard doctrine (Rom. 16:17), so its very lazy and unloving to settle with "well, he can just have his views and I'll have mine and that's OK". Its not OK. The Bereans in Acts 17 didn't settle with "Well, Paul can just have his views and we'll have ours". Instead, they "searched the scriptures to see if these things were so." We should be like the noble Bereans!

... im sick of people fighting over who's interpretation of the bible is right or wrong, how old the universe is, and what god did or didnt do.

And I'm pretty sick of your anti-intellectual interpretation that is so common today---no offense! 2 Tim. 2:15 says that we are to "study to show ourselves approved unto God" so that we may "rightly divide the word of truth." If some of my detractors actually studied the Bible they would find that their views are not scriptural at all.

i dont care what anyone believes or doesnt, and i dont think god does either.

But Christ said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me.' He also said, 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matt 7)

So clearly Christ clears about what we believe---in fact it is how we are saved. Those who profess Christ as Lord and Savior go to Heaven and those who do not go to Hell.

a wrinkle in rhyme

Like I said to XfridayxnightXcherryxpieX, there is nothing scriptural about your attitude. In fact, your attitude is anti-biblical. The Bereans were of the exact opposite mindset and Luke calls them "noble" as a result. See also 2 Tim. 2:15. Furthermore, how can you on the one hand say that it doesn't matter how we interpret God's revelation and then at the same time speak of the Prince of Peace---someone we know about only through revelation? You take from your right hand what you give with your left.

Kate:

Hello. Anyway, I never mentioned the worldview weekend quiz, so what are you talking about? This is another one of your subtle jabs?

gideonrecon: Yes, I am pretty familiar with Paul Manata, mainly from Triablogue and also his debate with Paul Barker---in which he clearly laid waste Barker's worldview. I agree, Paul Manata would be an excellent representative against RRS.

iamlovebygod: Thank you, thank you, thank you! Beautifully stated! How refreshing to see somone with the TRUE heart of Christ! :)

drawyoursocks: Thanks for your wise comments... I too am always shocked by how unloving and hypocritical those who bash truth and doctrine are.

ok, then.

for the record, i never said it didn't matter how we interpret God's revelation. i believe quite the contrary. my comment was in reference to the irony of how harsh you and others are being in your arguments over a God whose greatest commandment is to love one another.

i find it sad that you call others comments unloving but can't seem to speak with love yourself. i'm not talking about emotional, fluffy love, but the sort of love Jesus showed that bought about healing and change. but your comments are harsh and hurtful, not to mention judgemental, whether they are right or wrong.

i agree with iamlovedbygod, and this has nothing to do with that comment. you could probably learn quite a lot about speaking the truth in a manner that people will accept it from this person. but it is your comment in reference to theirs that i want to address:

"How refreshing to see somone with the TRUE heart of Christ! :)"

be careful how you judge. with your knowledge of the bible, i am sure you know what a slippery slope that is.

it doesn't seem that you are here to defend God, or truth, or whatever this has turned into. it doesn't even seem like you care if people believe the truth, just as long as they will take your verbal assaults and beatings. this is why, i think, a lot of people are turned off to God...the very same people preaching a message of a God who loves them is so quick to berate and belittle those who are seeking to learn and grow, and those who don't know at all.

you say i am anti-biblical, and i will admit that i am no biblical scholar. but i know enough to know that God hates pride and arrogance. there is a difference between being right and being cocky, and i would challenge you to examine yourself in this matter and see which category you fall under.

i am pretty sure this is all falling on deaf ears, and saying all of this to you is pointless, because you will rip it apart and find something i said that angers you and you will rip into me, in comment form. that's fine. it must be hard to be so angry all the time.

i wish you peace, my friend. and love.

*high five*

you really kick peoples ass. congrats dude. debate away! you are very good at scripture quoting, picking apart peoples comments, and showing how truly smart and righteous you are.

im amazed at your skill and knowledge. good job studying and debating and vomiting scripture up to prove your points.

i hope that you win many people to christ, and i hope many people read your blog and agree with every word you have to say.

i hope you debate with many people that arent christians and change their minds and convince them they are going to hell so they should shape up and love the only christ.

cuz thats such a good reason, i wanna love god because otherwise im going to hell.

i wanna love god because i have to protect his doctrine.

i wanna love god cuz otherwise im wrong, wrong, wrong.

while this all is good, backed up by scripture, and people love to say these things from the pulpit; i dont want to love god because someone told me to. i dont want to love god because a book tells me to. i dont want to love god becasue otherwise im going to hell.

i love god because i have a relationship with him, simple. therefore its easy for me to love other people because god shows me the ultimate love.

i dont tell people they are going to hell. instead i love them, and when they find out i am a christian, its because they ask me. they ask me why i love so much, why i care. and then they are compelled. because of love.

not because i told them they're going to hell or cuz the bible tells them to love god.

im sure that telling people theyre going to hell and such works too. lots of people seem to do it out of love to save their souls and it seems to work. its just not for me. and it completely turns me off.

so. keep studying, keep expanding your intellectual arguments. im glad you are blessed with such an awesome skill to debate. if i was blessed with that, im sure i would enjoy debating you.

but alas. i dont have the energy, nor the patience.

xoxoxo

elena

A wrinkle in ryhme---you are speaking the exact same tone that I speak in, and yet I am the harsh and judgmental one. You try to instruct me and claim that you do it in love, and yet when I instruct others in love you say that I am unloving. You tell me not to judge but then you tell me that I am not really interested in teaching people but just verbally assaulting them---what a judgment!

How is that I am supposed to take your supposedly "loving" words seriously when they are in fact completely hypocritical?

Also, just because I write objectively doesn't mean I'm unloving. Surely you know that. Christ berated Peter, even saying "Get behind me, Satan!" and yet would we say that He was unloving? You claim that you don't want a fluffly, emotional love and yet thats exactly what you expect from me. You keep speaking of this soft and fluffy Christ but I see only a Christ who loved people enough to speak the truth. Where have I not spoken the truth? And how would you know if I am doing it out of pride---you who have known me all of 2 days?

xfridaynightxcherrypiex---I find it incredibly hypocritical how you patronize and mock me and then claim that you simply "love" people.

You talk about a relationship with Christ. How do you know you have a relationship with Christ? You would have no clue how to enter into this relationship or how to define unless you had the Bible---and yet you mock me for protecting the Bible! See how self-contradictory your thinking is?

Also, Christ said, "If you love me, OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS." One of those commandments is the protection of doctrine (Rom. 16:17), so you are mocking me for my obedience to Christ!

Also, not everyone is saved by seeing the love in others lives and then asking about it. If you read in the book of Acts people were saved because the apostles went TO them and preached the gospel. If we waited until people made the first move then hardly anyone would follow Christ! Preaching the gospel is a command---its not something you can decide to do. If preaching about Hell turns you off then you have obviously have a problem with biblical evangelism---because this is exactly how Christ and the apostles preached!

I'm not trying to tear into you (although you'll think otherwise), I just want you to think about these things. Consider carefully reading through the gospels and examining how Christ spoke the truth.

peacefulraven: I merely refuted your arguments---how exactly is that grounds for persecution? I didn't treat you poorly or break into your home and hurt you. The worst I did was call you an arrogant mocker---but I backed it up with arguments which you never dealt with!

I find it funny how your initial comments to me were "please try and imagine how little I really care"... but now you're gung-ho about belittling me, as your lengthy post on your blog suggests!

I had planned on staying out of this. Even after you attacked my friends I planned on staying out of this. You're obviously an immature little troll hell bent on baiting people into debates, to the point of writing responses to them on your own xanga rather than on theirs, so that everyone can see how smart and great of a debater you are. Don't deny it -- debating is listed as one of your interests.

Now you've upset my wife (xfridayxnightxcherryxpiex). I won't stand for that.

I have some bones of contention to pick with you.


As a preface, you may want to read my article "The Word of God" (perhaps the comments, too, though it's all a bit long), located here:

http://www.xanga.com/pastor_j/461729605/the-word-of-god.html

When interpreting the Bible, one mustn't forget cultural context, historical context, who the author is (age, state of mind, where letter was written), and who it is addressing.

You seem extremely enfatuated with logic, intellectual scrutiny of the Scriptures, and "Defending doctrine (Rom 16:17)" Then you accuse others of taking Scripture out of context. Sir, it is you who are taking Scripture out of context. Let us look at Romans 16:17. I quote from the New Living Translation, which has been declared by Green scholars to be the most accurate translation of the Greek:

17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people's faith by teaching things that are contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.

This was right smack in the middle of Paul tying up loose ends in his letter to the Church in Rome, just before his benediction. Notice he warns of people who cause divisions and upset people's faith by teaching things that are "contrary to what you have been taught." What had he taught them in this very letter? Let's take a look. Below are some quick summaries I wrote about the Book of Romans, if you'd like to read them. As a broad statement, the letter of Paul to the Roman Church is a letter to Jews who were still having problem with the idea of relying on faith rather than the law, and God's favor and salvation being available to non-Jews, or Gentiles. It also speaks of living together as Christians in love, patience, humility, and grace.

Chapter 1 begins with Paul's greeting to the Roman church, and segues into Chapter two speaking of how the Jewish Christians are no better than heathen sinners, when they teach the Mosaic Law and turn around and break it. Taken from Chapter 2:

2:12 God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. 13 For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. 14 Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. 16 The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (Italics, bolding added)

From there, Paul continues, in our chapters 3 and 4, to speak of Abraham, and how God counted him righteous based on his faith long before he was ever circumcised according to Jewish law. Thus Abraham is the father of both the Jew and Gentile, through faith and circumcision. His primary point is that it is not scrutiny of the Mosaic Law that saves a man, it is the power of belief in Jesus.

What I gather from Paul's statements here, taken with the heartbeat of love found in the Scriptures, is that even the people who will never have the privilege to see a Bible, tear apart its semantics, or hear the name Jesus, already have God's redemptive plan written on their hearts through their conscience, and will counted as righteous if they stick to the belief, or faith, written in their hearts already.

It may interest you to know that the other world religions agree on this point, and that Islam states that Allah (God) will keep even Christians and Jews who stick to what they believe.

And yet Paul continues. In Chapter 5, he speaks of how God's unending grace and love have triumphed over sin, and how through the one man Jesus, life and forgiveness has been granted for many.

Chapter 6 speaks of how Christ's death has finally freed us all from the power of sin. Before that, we had no choice, but now we do. Paul encourages and exhorts the Roman Church to indulge in God's free gift of grace and choose the way of life.

Chapter 7 speaks of the everyday battle with sin. Paul speaks of how God gave the Mosaic Law to show us our sin and our need for a savior, for the law was impossible for us to obey. He speaks of his own struggle with sin, and how his head wants to follow sin, but his heart wants to follow God. Immediately he states (at the beginning of our chapter 8) "So now there is now condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus." Because the law brought so much condemnation, this was a radical statement! He goes on in chapter 8 to speak of the power of the Holy Spirit working in us.

Chapter 9 contains lamenting the state of the Jewish people, his own people. He speaks of the importance of relying on faith rather than the law. He speaks of God's sovereignty in accomplishing His purpose (this could lead into a discussion of universal salvation. But that is for another time and venue.)

Chapter 10 continues speaking of the Jews, but within are a couple of real gems. For example: "4 For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God. 5 For Moses wrote that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. 6 But the way of getting right with God through faith says, "You don't need to go to heaven" (to find Christ and bring him down to help you). 7 And it says, "You don't need to go to the place of the dead" (to bring Christ back to life again). 8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ which is the message we preach is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." 9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed."

Behold the often touted "Roman Road to Salvation." Like much of Scripture, this has been misinterpreted and misused. To think that reciting a pre-written 30 second prayer can save an eternal soul? Please. Paul explains himself if you read the passage in context. He says that the Good News is already in our hearts and in our mouths -- going on to explain that we are expressing that Good News, in faith, when we confess Jesus as our Lord (there is much richness in Jewish historical culture regarding calling someone "Lord" or "Master") and believe in Him and what He has done for us. Also of important note is that, like Jesus preached Himself, the message Paul preached is that salvation that comes from Christ is already within easy reach. God isn't trying to make it hard for us to come to Him, in fact, He's done all the work for us!

Romans 11 continues to explain God's sovereign plan that is seen throughout the history of the Jews and Gentiles. At the end of Chapter 11 is a warning I think both you and I should heed: "33 Oh, what a wonderful God we have! How great are his riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his methods! 34 For who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who knows enough to be his counselor? F76 35 And who could ever give him so much that he would have to pay it back? 36 For everything comes from him; everything exists by his power and is intended for his glory. To him be glory evermore. Amen."

Chapter 12 begins Paul's encouragement in how we Christians should live our daily lives, especially with each other. He encourages us to live loving each other, peacefully, and to never think we know everything. He encourages us to laugh with each other, cry with each other, be there with each other on our journies.

And this is the point of my greatest contention with you. Romans 12:9 For the commandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting and any other commandment are all summed up in this one commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements.

You said: "Christ's teachings are doctrine and doctrine must be protected (Romans 16:17)" and "We are commanded to guard doctrine (Rom. 16:17), so its very lazy and unloving to settle with "well, he can just have his views and I'll have mine and that's OK". Its not OK." and finally "Also, Christ said, "If you love me, OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS." One of those commandments is the protection of doctrine (Rom. 16:17), so you are mocking me for my obedience to Christ!"

I would ask who appointed you as Defender of the Faith, but you are not defending The Faith but your own doctrine, and then according to your last comment there, you would say you are simply following the command of Christ. However, as stated by Paul, and said by Jesus in John 13:34-35:

"34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. 35 Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples."

James (James 2:8) even refers to this as the Lord's Royal Command.

Loving each other. I know you would (and I think already did) state that it would not be loving somebody to let them continue in erroneous belief or doctrine.

But while you're busy "disproving atheists" and correcting Christians, who is loving them? Who is buying them groceries when they're out of a job? Who is hugging the mother who had an abortion? Who is helping the beaten wife? Who is helping the single mother? Who is helping the shattered young man struggling with his sexuality?

You are the only Jesus some people will ever see. Intellectualizing Scripture and being obnoxious to people who believe differently than you do is not effective. Baiting people into a live debate on your blog so you can show them the truth, the error of their ways, and how vast your knowledge of the "truth" is and what a "true Christian" you are is not effective. Nor is it love. I do hope you see that.

Hear me. I do not believe that Christianity is intellectual suicide (I've been in the same blogring!) I believe we absolutely must engage God with our minds and our logic. I believe we should seek knowledge and understanding. I pray for it muchly. But knowledge is not the end all. Logic is not the sign by which our Master said people would come to know Him, that we know Him.

He said it would be our love, compassion, and affection for one another. Our Agape. Our Filos. Our Storge. Our Eros.

Love. Love is the end all, be all. God Himself is love.

But I digress.

Chapter 14 starts with, "1 Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong."

Perhaps both of us should take that to heart. Paul continues in chapter 14 to say that mature Christians should help along their brothers and sisters being patient and accomodating them along the way. "All things to all men" is a tricky doctrine, because you don't want to compromise yourself. However, Paul continues to say that whether we live or die, no matter what we do or do not believe or live, we do so unto the Lord. He finishes up the chapter by saying that all will bow their knee to Jesus, no matter whether we argue with them or not. Perhaps another point both of us should think upon. Chapter 14 also speaks of the subjectivity of belief and what one views as "sin."

As to prove his point, he begins chapter 15 with:

1 We may know that these things make no difference, but we cannot just go ahead and do them to please ourselves. We must be considerate of the doubts and fears of those who think these things are wrong. 2 We should please others. If we do what helps them, we will build them up in the Lord. 3 For even Christ didn't please himself. As the Scriptures say, "Those who insult you are also insulting me." 4 Such things were written in the Scriptures long ago to teach us. They give us hope and encouragement as we wait patiently for God's promises.

5 May God, who gives this patience and encouragement, help you live in complete harmony with each other each with the attitude of Christ Jesus toward the other. 6 Then all of you can join together with one voice, giving praise and glory to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 So accept each other just as Christ has accepted you; then God will be glorified.

Once again he drives home the point that we should live with each other peacably, letting the Holy Spirit be the ultimate teacher, leader, and guide of the heart and community. Paul in fact states that we should accept each other, regardless of our differing beliefs, or states of spiritual maturity, for the sake of glorifying God.

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So to sum up:

In Romans 16:17-19, Paul encourages the Roman Church to avoid teachings other than what he and the other Apostles had taught them. In this very letter, Paul had taught them:

* God's gift of salvation is available because of grace, through faith, to both Jew and Gentile.
* In the end, God's will (that all will be saved) shall be accomplished, in spite of us
* Live together peacefully, loving each other patiently, as we all walk together toward God's perfect destiny for all of us.

Where does he talk about infallibility of Scripture, defending personal interpretation of Scripture, and fighting with each other about the age of the universe (eg.)?

All of that is mental masturabtion and is irrelevant. I love philosophical and theological discussion very much. However, when you approach anyone with the attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong, and here's why," that's not productive for anyone and is quite obnoxious. I would challenge you, as much as you love a good debate, to present your ideas and thoughts in a venue and in a manner that encourages dialogue and productive discussion, rather than attacking those that disagree with you.

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My next bone of contention, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you seem to lean quite heavily in the "infallibility" of Scripture, and that it is the source of "Ultimate Truth." I will quote from you xanga post found here:

http://www.xanga.com/razzendahcuben/565862641/item.html

In this entry, your cousin quotes:

"Truth cannot be found in evidence. Evidence does not provide the truth of God, after all, evidence, which is discovered by man, who is fallible, is also interpreted by man, who is, of course, fallible. The scripture comes from the infallible God and Creator of the universe. Therefore, it is infallible, since it is His word. Man interprets evidence how he wants. “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14) Also, a man will believe what he wants to believe, whether it is true or not.10 In light of this, then, a man will always interpret the evidence to show him what he wants it to show him. Thus, any attempt to use evidence will simply result in the evidence being twisted around against you. This is because, not only is man fallen, but man also thinks that he is not fallen, and so feels that he can discern truth on his own. This is foolishness."

And:

"In conclusion, then, the heart of Christianity is presuppositional. We must presuppose that the God is infallible, and, therefore, that the Bible, which is His word, is true. This is how we know that Christianity is true."

Okay, I am familiar with the Transitive Property. So if God is infallible, and He revealed something to us, then it stands to reason that what He revealed is infallible also.

But I think the flaw in your cousin's logic (and your's, too, since you seem to endorse his essay) is that Scripture was written by men. Sure, divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit over the ages. But surely you can see the foolishness of saying, "The Bible is infallible because it says so, and God wrote it," can't you? God didn't write it. He filtered revelation through flawed, fallible man. You can't have it both ways. And you also see the foolishness of using the Bible to prove a point with someone who doesn't even believe in the Bible or the infallibility of the Bible? I know you don't use that method with all of your debating and arguments, as I've read some of your writing and see that you do indeed use other methords to prove your point -- still, you see my point as it pertains to this discussion, the "infallibility" of the Bible?

I rather think that He enjoys our flavor and thoughts on things. I won't get into reasoning this one. Reason only gets you so far. It's something you have to know and feel. It's something that comes from relationship.

You seem to mentally assent to God, and Jesus. You seem to mentally assent to doctrine and things written about Jesus and God. It is not my right to question your relationship with Jesus. And that is not what I am doing, so please hear me. I am challenging you and asking you as a fellow Christian -- do you know Him?

The Bible is not the ultimate expression of God. Jesus is! Do you know Him? Do you know He is a living, breathing Man that is alive right now in a different place? Do you recognize His laugh when you hear it? Can you feel it when He cries, and then run to Him to ask Him why? Can you feel His caress in the wind?

Do you just read His letters, or do you really know the Man?

Have you leaned your head against the chest of the Great Wounded Rabbi and listened to his heartbeat? Have you heard the heartbeat of a God that thunders Love so loud the universe can scarcely contain it?

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Food for thought, sir. Tact for you would go a long way. Humility a bit further. Love the furthest of all.

Selah.

For you, I have only this simple, humble question.

How can you expect anyone to ever listen to you, take your beliefs and apply them to their lives when all you do is sit around, insult their opinions, their views, what they may be reading (the Miller comment) their 'anti-intellectual' standpoints, question the purity and sincerity of others and their walk with God... when you've never met any of them? These are people I know, people I have met and spent time with, looked into the eyes of and had long, deep philosophical conversations with. I know these people's looks, their thoughts, their past. You don't even know their last names. You have no vested interest in even one of them. I can't think of any reason why you should be listened to, let alone taken seriously.

I find that incredibly arrogant. And terribly sad. And I don't see at all how Jesus takes glory in anything you, and some of the others, have said here.

Ezekiel 36:26

Pastor J, thank you for your comments. Please do not take offense to me correcting you---I do it only out of love for you, God, and His word.

I had planned on staying out of this. Even after you attacked my friends I planned on staying out of this. You're obviously an immature little troll hell bent on baiting people into debates, to the point of writing responses to them on your own xanga rather than on theirs, so that everyone can see how smart and great of a debater you are. Don't deny it -- debating is listed as one of your interests.

What's wrong with debating? Paul and Christ debated all the time. But no, I don't lure people to my site so I can show them how "smart and great of a debater" I am. And I really don't care whether you believe me. God knows my heart.

I read your post entitled "The Word of God." I do not have time to read the comments, however, but if you think that another crucial point needs to be brought out then feel free to tell me.

As you can imagine, I consider Brian McLaren a false teacher and do not believe that his words reflect the heart and mind of Jesus Christ. Of course, I'm not going to address everything he said or everything you said in these comments, but if you would like to discuss certain points in particular, let me know.

Thank you for your summary of Romans. Some points you made are correct, others are not. Once again, if you want to discuss this in depth let me know.

Also, the Roman Road is not about asking people to recite a 30 second prayer. The Roman Road is a series of verses from Romans that explain God's plan for salvation.

I would ask who appointed you as Defender of the Faith, but you are not defending The Faith but your own doctrine, and then according to your last comment there, you would say you are simply following the command of Christ. However, as stated by Paul, and said by Jesus in John 13:34-35:

The commandment to love one another doesn't nullify the other commandments. It is simply a summary of all the commandments. To follow all of the commandments is to love God and love others. Therefore, you should know that I am loving your wife by explaining here error to her! How cruel would it be if I knew your wife was in error and yet remained silent?

But while you're busy "disproving atheists" and correcting Christians, who is loving them? Who is buying them groceries when they're out of a job? Who is hugging the mother who had an abortion? Who is helping the beaten wife? Who is helping the single mother? Who is helping the shattered young man struggling with his sexuality?

I don't know, what's your point? Are you saying that I'm not? You know nothing about me.

You are the only Jesus some people will ever see. Intellectualizing Scripture and being obnoxious to people who believe differently than you do is not effective. Baiting people into a live debate on your blog so you can show them the truth, the error of their ways, and how vast your knowledge of the "truth" is and what a "true Christian" you are is not effective. Nor is it love. I do hope you see that.

NO. This is false and unloving. Why do you expect me to allow to preach lies like this? John Calvin said it like this:

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent.

To you and those like you, speaking the truth in love means not speaking at all. I'm sick of you acting like you have some moral high ground when in reality everything you say contradicts scripture.

Christ and the apostles debated, disputed, reasoned, argued, convinced, rebuked, reproved, corrected, and taught---and they command other Christians to do the same as well (2 Tim. 4:2). Why do you think that I am not allowed to obey Christ? I love Christ, therefore I will obey Him. And I love His church, therefore I will protect her from people like you who speak error. I would be unloving not to refute your falsehoods!

Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong."

This is obviously referring to Christian liberty, which deals with matters in which scripture is silent. But scripture is NOT silent about whether we are to refute false teachers. Therefore it is not a matter of Christian liberty. The NKJV states it better: "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things."

Where does he talk about infallibility of Scripture, defending personal interpretation of Scripture, and fighting with each other about the age of the universe (eg.)?

The infallibility of scripture is assumed, otherwise it is merely Paul's opinion and is not authoritatively binding. But to think of Romans and non-authoritative would make the points in your list (salvation is through faith, God's will is always accomplished, we must walk in love) meaningless. Furthermore, Paul speaks elsewhere very clearly about the infallibility of scripture: "For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe." (1 Thess. 2:13) It is the word of God, therefore we can trust it. If it is not infallible how could we trust it any more than the word of man?

However, when you approach anyone with the attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong, and here's why," that's not productive for anyone and is quite obnoxious.

And yet that's exactly the attitude that you've approached me with in this entire comment of yours. Why are you emergent types so hypocritical?

But surely you can see the foolishness of saying, "The Bible is infallible because it says so, and God wrote it," can't you? God didn't write it. He filtered revelation through flawed, fallible man. You can't have it both ways.

You obviously don't understand inspiration. Haven't you read the scriptures?

19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1)

God used man as an instrument, but that doesn't mean that the Bible is fallible like man. Is God not capable of accomplishing this? In Isaiah 55:11 we read:

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God accomplishes what He wants in spite of man's involvement. Wasn't that one of your points when you summarized Romans?

And you also see the foolishness of using the Bible to prove a point with someone who doesn't even believe in the Bible or the infallibility of the Bible?

There is nothing foolish about it. God is the ultimate authority, therefore I will always begin my reasoning with His word even if I do not overtly mention it from the start. And yes, I do always use a presuppositional method, as does everyone else (unwittingly, usually).

I rather think that He enjoys our flavor and thoughts on things. I won't get into reasoning this one. Reason only gets you so far. It's something you have to know and feel. It's something that comes from relationship.

How would you have a relationship with God if you didn't know anything about Him? He has to reveal Himself to you before you can have a relationship, therefore its assent towards the revelation that comes first, not the relationship.

I am challenging you and asking you as a fellow Christian -- do you know Him?

Yes. Do you? How do you know?

The Bible is not the ultimate expression of God. Jesus is!

Maybe---I don't know what you mean by "ultimate expression".

Do you know Him? Do you know He is a living, breathing Man that is alive right now in a different place? Do you recognize His laugh when you hear it? Can you feel it when He cries, and then run to Him to ask Him why? Can you feel His caress in the wind?

God has never revealed anything in His word about "feeling" Jesus, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I am a son of God because Christ bought me with a price---His death on the cross in my place.

Do you just read His letters, or do you really know the Man?

I know the Son of Man, yes. Do you? How do you know?

Have you leaned your head against the chest of the Great Wounded Rabbi and listened to his heartbeat? Have you heard the heartbeat of a God that thunders Love so loud the universe can scarcely contain it?

Are you asking me if I've experienced God? Yes, but not as a fuzzy feeling. I have experienced Him through His word, through His work in my life through His Spirit, through prayer, through other Christians, etc.

Food for thought, sir. Tact for you would go a long way. Humility a bit further. Love the furthest of all.

Likewise. But what disturbs me is that you think you have the moral high ground, when in reality you have been very hypocritical in your comments towards me. I don't appreciate that. Also, I don't appreciate you chastising me for misunderstanding love when you do not understand biblical love.

Keith

By the way, Pastor J, when I said "NO. This is false and unloving," I was referring to the idea that we aren't supposed to explain error to people... I wasn't defending the idea of being obnoxious and showing off. (Some astounding judgments, by the way!)

Hey Keith!  I couldn't agree with you more on pretty much everything you said in this review of the debate.  The second I heard that they were going to even do this debate, I got sick to my stomach.  It was so stupid.  I too surmised that Bashir was the strongest intellect there that night.  Sad.  Sad sad sad... good grief... I wanted to shoot myself...

But instead of shooting myself I decided to go over to their little website and try to do some damage control.  It's been fun.  Some of the people over there are actually cool to talk to; others are morons.  Ah well.  We have morons in our camp too, I guess... hehe.

Blessings...

Adam

PS - I'm reading Polanyi's Personal Knowledge right now... really cool stuff!

Daniel Glasglow,

I can't believe you would question the purity and sincerity of my brother here on xanga and his walk with God, calling him arrogant... when you've never met him?

 I have been reading this dear brother's material for a while now, and I think you are judging him rather fast.  How do you know his motives?  I mean, you can't just know just by people's looks and read their thoughts you know...the heart is deceitful and only God can know someone else's heart... I bet you don't even know this brother's last names or middle name (does that even matter, since you bought it up?). You have no vested interest in Razzendahcuben. I can't think of any reason why given the charge and reason you have given, why you should be listened to, let alone taken seriously by Keith...