Because we decide to believe certain things, should we stop seeking different meanings or facets of our beliefs?  Again, IDK.

RYC:

"I firmly believe in keeping a "don't know" mind."

Well it is a reasonably safe stance to take.  And if there is safety in truth, then that is really where we want to be.  Better an innocent and inquiring mind that is not cast in stone than a staunch believer ready to die for a mistaken belief.

L,r

Wow!  If you were reading this, and I was in the audience, I would give you a standing ovation - really, really good post.  So much so that I'm going to copy this and save it on my computer.  Excellent, excellent post !!

Really excellent post. I'm pretty much a seeker too.

I am both a believer and a seeker.  I believe in God, in Christ and in His Spirit, but I don't know everything there is to know about Him, so I still seek to learn about His loving and compassionate ways.  We cannot kown Him and find Him if we don't seek Him.   I hope you are  well.  Blessings on you and your loved ones.  +

What is it you seek you have said there is no truth, there are no beliefs, so what do you seek? Judi

Ron, you make me smile.... for it is nice to meet fellow seekers that are on that journey as well. Cheers.

I agree with the above^^ and with Deacontom.

I believe in God and that He raised Jesus from the dead. Everything else is subject to question for me.

My passionate pursuit is to know the true and living God.

Wish I could say that Baptist website is unbelievable. Unfortunately, it isn't.

I believe there is too much hatred, arrogance, self-righteousness mingled in with the christianity we see today. I believe Jesus had none of that, taught none of that, and fought against those very things in His own day.

Ok, I know I have said this several different times on your site and each time I believed it but THIS is your best post ever! This did so much for me on so many fronts.

It answered so many questions for me, especially why you rarely talk about you and your opinion. I crave your opinion because you have said so many things that have caused me to rethink my truth. I welcome that.

I consider you my seeking buddy.

I have never heard of Osho but I loved that article and that is the exact reason why I do not belong to a religion. I know in this life I have to discover my truths, I have tried to live with my parents truths for years and it did not work. I have found that when I discover a truth it is with me forever when somebody tells me about their truth with a clever story it seems to slip away after a short time, slippery truths.

Live it, learn it, keep it.

You are the light on the hill

Lenn

I gave up seeking a long time ago. What I sought was God but he was there all the time. Perhaps I sought my own definition of God. Ego to me is useful as it is there to protect me I just thank it for protecting me or wanting to protect me and loving me and then it does not get itself into false pride. If we do not love our ego are we not placing a judgement on it? I am lost with your posts, Lenn's and Trimtabs. I do not see where you are coming from but perhaps I will grow more and it will become obvious to me. I am not being sarcastic here I really do not see your point. Judi

RYC:

"Deacontom had a good point - it's not too bad to believe so long as you keep seeking."

I think I am a seeking believer.  And I could take being naked in front of strangers rather than family.  Next is why is that so for some of us and others, like you feel more comfortable around family.  Hmmm...good think to keep in mind for further study.

L,r

Ridiculous post. Disparaging people who are believers, and setting yourself up above them. What hidden pride, what arrogance.

I do agree with you on debating, however.

I think you need to always be seeking but I think you can come to a place where you can believe certain things.

theologiancafe: "you can come to a place where you can believe certain things" Could we be in a state of believing and seeking at the same time?

I think so... but then again, i'm still looking. ;)

Let me get on this journey too.

At the risk of having you think me a rigid believer who is not able to seek deeper truths I will respond to your comments. I do not see this as a debate, but as a conversation. I am not trying to convince you of anything, but I don't think your statements should just be floated out there without a response. I like to clarify. Perhaps you're content with not understanding another person, but some forms of thinking just baffle me. They'd baffle me if I were an agnostic or an atheist, so to some extent it really has nothing to do with my belief (or lack thereof). So, on with the conversation:

"You read a particular passage one way and I read it another." I understand what you're saying, but I don't read a particular passage without considering a number of factors, primarily the audience to whom it was written and how it relates to scripture as a whole. Without a fairly solid understanding of the whole of scripture one can't possibly read a single passage and come up with an understanding that is consistent with the whole.

"So to say that I'm always quoting the Bible as saying this or that is quite an incorrect statement."

Which is probably why i did not make that statement. I merely stated what drew me into a conversation with you in the first place. The actual statement was: 'However our conversation began because you were trying to tell others what the Bible "really" means.'

"Have you ever heard of the psychological concept of projection?"

Why, yes, I have. And thank you for providing such a fine example. It appears that you've projected your own statement on my half of the conversation. It is, in fact, you who has said not to quote the Bible but just show you Jesus in me, but you think that I've accused you of "always quoting the Bible". Is that what you mean?

"The believer is not a seeker."

Do you believe you're a seeker? Does that make you a believer? I know too many believers who reveal the lie in this statement.

"The believer wants to avoid seeking, that's why he believes."

Hmmm. Wasn't it I who mentioned that your form of relativism seemed more a path of avoidance? What if relativism is a way to avoid truth?

"Belief has nothing to do with truth."

Doesn't that depend entirely upon what is being believed?

"You can believe that it is night but just by your believing, it is not going to become night."

Thanks for the opportunity to expand on what I mean. What if it is night? Belief does not make it so, but it is so and believing it because it is so is right. To disbelieve that it is night just to avoid being a believer is to stumble about in the darkness, to drive on unlit rural roads with your lights off. Far better to acknowledge the truth and look for the light.

"You are living in a kind of hallucination."

Certainly, if your belief is in something that is not true, you are living a fantasy. But by the same token, relativism is a hallucination. There are things that may be known. To chose not to know that the stove is hot is to risk destruction. There are no pure relativists (at least not for very long) because to live out the purely relativistic way of thinking is to die early. If you cannot know that the approaching traffic is true, why stay in your lane? The fact of the matter is that every relativist I know operates under the same set of consistencies and 'knowns' that the rest of us do. You can take a stand on relativistic principles in a conversation such as ours, but I'm certain you cannot live them out on a day to day basis. If you could, you'd be a believer I'd guess.

"There is this danger in belief. It makes you feel that you know the truth."

Ah. This is very true. There is danger in belief in the same sense that there is danger in swimming or in driving or flying. It's best to make sure that what you believe to be true, is true. That is why one should learn to swim before diving off a boat. I see this in the church all the time. In that sense, believers who have stopped seeking, this is very true and is the bane of Christendom. However it is not an absolute that believers have stopped seeking.

"Believe or disbelieve and you are blocked - because disbelief is also nothing but belief in a negative form."

Shoot. I could preach that! Oh, wait, I already have......

"Why should one be a Christian? It is ugly."

Like the ugly American, there is indeed the ugly Christian. Then why be an American? Why be anything? We can find ugly examples of every idiom or group out there.

"When you can know, when knowing is possible, why settle for believing?"

Interesting quotation for one who does not believe that we can know....

This is actually my understanding of what a genuine believer is. One who knows because they've examined something and found it to be so. Their knowledge may be flawed, but there are certain things they can be certain of. Does that mean that everyone who is certain 'knows'? No. Sadly not. But I believe that it is good to questin what you think you know so that you may learn. I hate to be wrong. I hate it so much that when I see that I am wrong I work to alter my course.

no, actually i do believe that marriage is a higher level in relationship, never said that it's easier. It's tough. If one can lead a happy marriage, one can conquer anything ^_^

I really want to jump in here again but I must go to bed now.

I will say this: there is often a vast chasm between knowing a fact, or knowing evidence presented in a biased way by someone with an agenda, and knowing truth.

There is a difference between what passes for truth, what is taught as truth, and the ontological truth that we do not as yet know, nor can we know in full. There is no way the ontological truth of God, who He is and what He is about, can be contained within the covers of a book, or even comprehended by the mind of man.

For those who are not satisfied with the limits of human thinking concerning God, with human words, with human thoughts, we must keep seeking. We cannot afford to rely on what men have said concerning Him if we want to know the truth.

I find it curious that people want to see this as a black and white issue, am I a believer or a seeker? If they are a believer then they have the option to choose to be offended when no offense is intended. I understand this post as challenging all of us to not label us as one or the other but to simply not put our spiritual growth on any one man or organization. We need to experience our own truths and think independtly and not follow just to follow . This is not rebellious but God like. We are all sons and daughters of God, a piece of the pie if you will, and God is intelligence and love, and so are we.

Hmmm. Stooping to patronizing?

I don't know about this.  I think my faith is pretty strong, so are my beliefs.  But very often, I have doubts whether something the Church tells me to do is righteous or well-reasoned.  It's not the nature of the action that I doubt, it is the motivation and rationalization that I doubt.  That's what I spend most of my time on nowadays whenever I think of religious issues.  It's kind of an apologetic attitude I have, I guess. 

I don't believe that if your beliefs are strong, you should have no doubts.  I take these as tests.  Beliefs that haven't been tested are actually weak.

ryc: lol... no way, that theory is too hard to be replaced.  There is a whole industry in physics called String theory just to attempt reconcile General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics.  It's just beyond my level of intelligence.  I do try to come up with something revolutionary via playing with soap bubbles though. 

Not saying that writing is a freedom when I do it for free saying that you have to have what you want in your life in the now. Judi

What does it matter if you are a believer or a seeker?  In the mind of universe we are all the same and one.  Which one is better?  neither and both are.  Blessing.

Wow--Lively response from the peeps! As always, strong opinion met with resistance, and flaming, and intolerance...that's why we live in such a PC society, so that theoretically nobody gets offended. The problem is, people will get offended, anyhow, if they wish to. Also, in holding their own "line", they deny you from the freedom of expressing how it is you really feel.

Nobody should get squashed, just because they are brave enough to explore how it is they feel.

The believer is not a seeker.  The believer does not want to seek, that's why he believes. 

Is this your belief?  I can see how you may come to that conclusion with persons you encounter.  You must encounter beliefs that are not truly researched or based on evidence.  Therefore, you are encountering 'beliefs' based on credulity.  Based on nothing.  For example, the belief that Hitler had that blue-eyed, blonde-haired persons are a superior race, that they are actually smarter genetically, is scientifically preposterous.

It's not true, though, that when you meet a person who has beliefs, that he or she ceases to be open-minded or to seek answers.  There are plenty of questions.  Some questions in my life, I have answered.  Others, I have not.  The answers I have found does not at all inhibit my curiosity and quest for other questions to be answered.  

The believer wants to avoid seeking, that's why he believes. 

This is not always the case.  I think that seeking is healthy.  To never find answers, frustrating; it is to be the dog that continues to chase its own tail.  There are some who seek and are unwilling to let their questions be answered b/c they, in fact, are fearful.  They are fearful of being accountable.  Having an answer requires action.  To be accountable.  To show commitment.  For example, a man seeks his "purpose in life".  Answers could come his way, but b/c he doesn't like the answer, he rejects it.  Perhaps the answer is too selfless for him.  Perhaps the answer means that he will have to forego wealth or fame.  His selfishness causes him to be blind to such an answer, and therefore, he coughs it up as, "That's just not for me", and he goes his way trying to seek another path.  He is not a true seeker.  A true seeker wants to find answers.  A true seeker is honest. 

The believer wants to be delivered, saved.  He needs a savior, he is always in search of a messiah - somebody who can eat for him, chew for him, digest for him. 

Quite frankly, I look around the world, and everyone needs salvation.  For different reasons, but everyone needs it.  Everyone doesn't think he or she needs it.  In this way, you overestimate each person's ability.  In the world we live, men injure men.  Not the gender.  I mean, the human race.  No matter what schemes men derive to bring peace to the earth, to cease terror, to cure illness, to avoid death, he is ill-equipped to take on such problems.  Whatever headway one person or a small group of person make for the good of mankind is easily undone by another, larger, stronger group of persons.  More than just the ability of humans is needed to bring mankind the help he needs.

Belief has nothing to do with truth. 

Sometimes, it doesn't.  Other times, yes, it does.  Just b/c you encounter someone who has a belief, though, doesn't mean the belief is not true.  Question the believer, "Why do you believe this?"  See whether or not the person is credible.  See whether or not they've put thought into it, or whether it's a genealogical tradition passed from one to another, simply b/c "ma and pa said so."

You can believe that it is night but just by your believing, it is not going to become night.  You are living in a kind of hallucination.

You can believe that it is night b/c you looked at your watch, and it says 9 pm and b/c it's dark outside.  Your argument above is about what could be, not about what is already.  If I take a midday nap that carries me over what I intended, I could wake up yawning and my shades could be drawn.  I say to myself, "I wonder if it's dark out."  I look at my watch.  It's 9 pm.  I say, "Yep, I believe it is dark outside."  That is NOT a hallucination.  It is based on evidence. I look outside, and what do I see?  I see that my belief is CORRECT.

There is this danger in belief.  It makes you feel that you know the truth.  And because it makes you feel that you know the truth, this becomes the greatest barrier in the search.  Believe or disbelieve and you are blocked - because disbelief is also nothing but belief in a negative form.

Disbelief can be defined as a person who seeks and refuses to find answers.  "No, that's not the answer to my question.  Nope, that is not it either.  I must keep searching, although, I'm never going to find the answer."  Therefore, the person who continuously seeks, you have condemned right along with the person who believes.  Your disbeliever is the same as your seeker. 

True, danger can come in the form of belief.  The Holocaust, case in point.  However, belief can also be very beneficial.  "I have a belief, and it has helped me, and I want to share it with you.  You are asking the same question I once asked.  I have taken the route you are on right now.  Let me share my belief with you.  Let me help you.  The confusion and frustration you face can be remedied." 

Do not our parents guide us from their experiences so that we can avoid the pitfalls they once experienced?  Yes, some persons are so stubborn that they must experience the pitfalls themselves, only to come to the same conclusion by which they were once warned   How grateful I am to my parents who helped me avoid the problems that so many around me face.  I have had my hardships, but I have avoided many problems too.    

The Catholic believes in God, the communist believes in no-God:  Both are believers.  Go to Kaaba or go to Comintern, go to Kailash or to the Kremlin, it is all the same.  The believer believes it is so, the nonbeliever believes it is not so.  And because both have already settled without taking the trouble to go an discover it, the stronger is their belief the greater is their barrier.  They will never go on a pilgrimage, there is no point.  The will live surrounded by their own illusion, self-created, self-sustaining, it may be consoling, but it is not liberating.  Millions of people are wasting their lives in belief and disbelief.

Millions are helping others to improve their lives by sharing their beliefs.  It is the method that is the key.  To force one's belief on another is where the problem comes in.  To use extremist methods.  To use methods  rooted in hate and violence.  This is where your point is valid.  All religions that participate in warfare are hypocritical at the core. 

The inquiry into truth only begins when you drop all believing.  You say, "I would like to encounter the truth on my own.  I will not believe in Christ and I will not believe in Buddha.  I would like to become a christ or a buddha myself, I would like to be a light unto myself."  Why should one be a Christian?  It is ugly.  Be a christ if you can be, but don't be a Christian.  Be a buddha if you have any respect for yourself, but don't be a Buddhist.  The Buddhist believes, Buddha knows.

Christian is literally defined, "Christ-like".  To say to be a christ, and then to say, "don't be a Christian" is a contradictory statement.  Your frustration comes in when you meet a person who CLAIMS to be a Christian but who doesn't ACT like Christ.  You are frustrated with FAKE Christians.  They say one thing and do another.  They are hypocrites.  Mohammed Gandhi once said that the problem with Christianity was the Christians.  Yet, he also said that if everyone on earth applied the teachings of Christ as outlined in his Sermon on the Mount that all the world's problems would come to an end.  So, the problem isn't with the formula; the problem is with the persons who misapply the formula.  They have followed the addage, "I will determine my own way."  They really aren't following the way of Christ.  Therefore, the advice you give has already been implemented, and the world is no better off and all the more confused b/c of it.

When you can know, when knowing is possible, why settle for believing?

This, too, is a contradictory statement.  "Knowing" is believing.  You are playing with words, and I'm not even sure you realize it. 

I think your overall intent here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that a person should really question what he or she believes.  Be open to answers that could very well contradict what they currently "believe".  Be open to seeking those answers.  There is no point in seeking if one doesn't want to find answers.  I've met persons like this.  They don't come off as being open-minded or liberated.  They come off as completely confused and wishy washy, unable to make a decision, unable to have back bone for anything.  Non-committed.  Arbitrary.  Irresponsible.  Beliefs aren't something that should be adopted blindly or handed over to us from our parents like eye color or hair color.

Rethink, however, your overall derision for beliefs.  After all, when you observe a person who claims beliefs and you see how those beliefs have negative consequences such as, "God hates Fags", your rejection of such behavior is your very own belief.  "I do not agree with this person who says, 'God hates Fags'".  That is an expression on your part of what you believe.

I couldn't agree more that those who revel in the debate are just wasting your time.  Many times, they like the debate, not to help you, the seeker, to find answers.  They like the debate b/c they want to feel glorified.  They want to feel that they have won, not that they are right.  They want the other party to feel condescended. 

However, you will encounter persons who have beliefs, and they are not wanting to debate.  They are wanting to have helpful, healthful conversation.  There are few, but they are out there.  :)