Many of them have seen firsthand neighborhood redlining and the subsequent racial division in home mortgage rates (where African Amercians paid higher interest).

Nathan I work in the mortgage industry and the media has blown the higher rates thing way out of proportion. I am sure there are examples of blacks being charged more due to their race, but it is far from the norm. The main thing that has caused higher interest rates for people is poor credit. It is unfortunate that minorities in some parts of the country (we lend in multiple states) have lower FICO scores than whites. It is true of Hispanics too. Asians on the other hand typically have very high scores and get the absolute best rates. Credit scores have more to do with the rate disparity than anything else.
Redlining is against the law and one can loose his license for doing it in just about every state plus face federal prosecution. I often joke that here in the west loan officers are too greedy to redline. I imagine in the south this might still occur some, but the feds monitor home purchases and like to make examples of people if they see a problem in a given area.

Straddling the fence, Nate?

Schenk-- It's a systemic problem, though. Minorities had for years been given no opportunity to build wealth or credit, partly because they couldn't get good houses or jobs (and couldn't vote), and partly because large companies located payday-loan places rather than banks in low-income areas. But then suddenly they (and other poor people) became targeted by credit all over the place. We all know that the corporations who extend credit see people with poor credit as their biggest source of income.

Newworldview-- I wouldn't really say I "straddle the fence." I am white and don't pretend to be anything other. I recognize that I'll never know what it's like to be a minority. But I have a lot more knowledge, humility, and empathy about my racial status than I used to. That's what makes the difference.

Excellent

I agree with your post.

p

yup.

I guess it's a similar thing that happens in Europe. Blacks, and by that I mean Afro-Caribbeans, not Africans, constantly use the race card to "win" an argument or discussion with ethnic Europeans. By making it personal, by saying the person they are talking to is a racist, then the only reasonable response is to stop discussing anything with the accuser. This sort of dis-ingenious tactic used to deliberately debase a discussion to personal abuse is unworthy of discussing anything with. Unfortunately, such people then assume they have won the argument. I have never had such problems with any other racial group in Britain, not Africans per se or those from the Indian subcontinent, both of whom suffered greatly from imperialism. I long ago reached the stage where I do not discuss anything concerning social problems with Afro-Caribbeans who show that stereotypical response with me, although I am more than pleased to do so with any other "race". I know that does not help to alleviate their problems that do exist, but I am not willing to discuss the time of day with someone who judges me by perceived racial defects, such as whites are inherently racist, which I hear being bandied about by blacks all the time. Until they change their method of debate, they will never improve their position vis-a-vis ethnic Europeans and that is unfortunate but down to them. I have had enough of them. Fuck history. Deal with the people in front of you, not their ancestors. Sorry if that offends people but that is where I've reached personally.

Lovegrove-- I have had some similar experiences and can sympathize on that. However, your comment displays the very issue I was uncovering in this post: the fact that whites and blacks tend by and large to see this racism issue very differently. Whites see it as "history" and "ancestors", words you yourself used, while a lot of minorities are in fact talking about present, continuing injustices when they discuss racism. While I have at times become angry at minorities for becoming emotional and "using the race card" as you said, I also realize that as an American white heterosexual male I have little moral authority to tell those people anything; the best I can do is change my own attitude and try to influence my fellow whites.

I'm about as white as anyone. English and Welsh by ancestry, and born and raised in suburban U.S.A., attending public schools (for the most part). But here's the thing. I don't think I fit your paradigm. When I talk about race, I'm usually focused on both what has been accomplished and what still needs to be done.

When it comes to the latter discussion, I am amazed at how people like Bill Cosby are treated by some in the black community when he points out areas of irresponsibility in the black community that must change in order for continued progress to be made.

But I also don't mean to minimize the depth of the resentment and scarring that has occurred in the United States because of discrimination based on African-American ethnicity. I know its real and that it is pervasive. I also know that the battle against it requires individuals to "swim upstream" against prevailing cultural currents. That's part of the problem. When someone starts to see the continuing nature and extent of the problem, becoming part of the solution seems like an overwhelming task.

I realize that you are speaking in generalities, so I won't take you to task for over-generalizing. But I do wish you'd refrain from the self-flagellating attempts at apologizing for who you are. Your moral authority to speak into these issues has NOTHING to do with your identity as an American white heterosexual male. Your moral authority rests solely on the extent to which you are speaking the truth in love.

Laser,

I think Nate speaks from another perspective that you can't dismiss so easily by saying that his "moral authority rests solely on the extent to which you are speaking the truth in love." His moral authority comes from both perspectives and i thought you would have seen that by now. He is a person, a human being but that doesn't negate the reality of his phenotype and the privilege he is aware of.

He has shown a great deal of courage to not only step into this discussion but to actually talk about the impact of being white. Instead of defining how his moral authority works maybe you should just listen and let the definition of how he works it stand. Just a thought.

p

@Pashe - 

Nope. I will not stand idly by while someone denigrates himself as some kind of necessary major premise for entering into a worthwhile discussion of ethnic relationships and ethnic conflicts, especially as it relates to blacks and whites in the USA. It's not necessary, and it's demeaning.

Laser,

He's not denigrating himself or the white race for that matter. He's just coming as a servant, someone that is aware that he has much to learn. That's not a bad thing. Nowhere in his post has he said or even implied that he is inferior to me or anyone of color. All he is saying is that he might be ignorant on how me or others might feel. That's it.

From what I read I have seen nothing to show Nathan as a self hating white guy. I just don't see it. Considering I have been dealing with self hating white people for a very long time I know what self pity looks like. He is not projecting false humility either, just a desire to learn. That's the sign of a servant not a person looking flagellate themselves for ethnic discussion.

p

@Pashe - 

"as an American white heterosexual male I have little moral authority to tell those people anything; the best I can do is change my own attitude and try to influence my fellow whites."

I agree that this shows the heart of a learner, but this is also what I think misses the mark somewhat. To be effective, the discussion needs to flow both ways. The black community needs to talk to the white community, and the white community needs to talk with the black community.

@Laserlawyer - 

@Laserlawyer - 

No argument there. I agree with what you said. But and this is a big but there needs to be trust and quite honestly black, Latin, gay... have more to loose in this conversation so it's more important as a first step for whites to shut up and learn and as trust is developed dialog can flourish. This is an issue that by and far most whites no next to nothing about. That's why his attitude is so important.

p

@Pashe - 

See, I still have a problem when someone says that a badly-needed dialogue has to start by muzzling one side or the other. How about we start the dialogue by agreeing to respect each other's point of view, and by finding out what goals we have in common and what means we can share in reaching those goals?

I agree that trust is something that has to be earned. And only a fool trusts his enemy. For a long time in this country, blacks and whites have treated each other as enemies. But I'm here to tell you that in Christ, this history of hatred is destroyed. This diversion of division is no more. In Christ, there is unity, maturity, and strength to resist the schemes of wicked men.

So, I think the discussion starts in Christ.

@Laserlawyer - 

@Laserlawyer - 

No argument there. I actually agree that I am united to you spiritually. We are one. I am a contemplative and a mystic. My goal in relationship with Jesus is union and that means I am one with you too. But and this is a big but union must mean that you share the pains and burdens that of the poor and oppressed. It means letting the holy spirit open you up beyond all your limits to a point where you will say in all honesty and empathy, their pain is my pain, their loves and joys are mine. I don't know if you or other conservatives can say that. It's a continual growing process. BTW I have a few conservative friends that can claim what I just wrote and they will rarely vote with progressives.

The healing process starts with love, not forgiveness. Forgiveness begins later, and it must be part of the process, but it begins with charity, inspiration, longsuffering, empowerment and joy. It can honestly begin with a meal and then go from there. But forgiveness is much further down the list than that. We are talking about relationship not some blank check for some to ignore their responsibility to the downtrodden.

p

Actually you could not be more wrong about that. I never said it was inextricably related to race but it does have to do with loving your enemies and actually living in union with your fellow believers. That's why I can say in all authority you know very little about reconciliation. Love is reconciliation at least according to Jesus.

p

@Pashe - 

"It means letting the holy spirit open you up beyond all your limits to a point where you will say in all honesty and empathy, their pain is my pain, their loves and joys are mine."

I agree wholeheartedly.

If I appear ignorant - or if we appear to disagree - it is because I have been talking about reconciliation in non-spiritual terms.

In non-spiritual terms, a man can be reconciled with an enemy, but he cannot be reconciled with someone who is merely different.  In non-spiritual terms, if I help a neighbor in need, that is an act of love, not reconciliation.

Now, if you mean to say that Sin separates us from both God and our fellow man, I agree.  This idea affirms Romans 13:8 in the sense that we must reconcile our debts.

I'm sorry I didn't catch the source of our miscommunication earlier.

It doesn't have the power to destroy me. It never did. I still love how you think this stuff is in the past, (please notice my sarcasm.) It's not and the sooner you step into that the sooner this conversation can go forward. God is not over it. So as soon as he no longer thinks it's an issue the sooner I will know longer here him crying out for justice for those forgotten. I have forgiven more about this issue than you will ever understand. I have a high suspicion that you are not asking me to forgive but to not bring it up because you don't think it can be resolved. I believe it can be resolved that's why I bring it up oh and btw I am not the one bringing it up. You all were the ones that posted on this issue before I did. Let's clarify that a little bit.

p

@Pashe - 

So, how would you describe the things in life that bring you pain, and love, and joy?

DJD1958-- Regarding your forgiveness comment: You are displaying exactly what I am talking about, which is the notion that this whole racism thing is "in the past" and that African Americans should "let it go" and "forgive". I will of course not deny the need for forgiveness, but the whole point here is that racism is not past. It is a present evil, and us white folks need to understand that and stop browbeating our black brothers to "get over it" and "forgive".

Laserlawyer--I've got a few responses:

1) I am not "self-flagellating" or "apologizing for who I am". Your response here reminds me of the time I critiqued America and you indicated that I am part of the "Blame America First" crowd. But, the thing is, there is a huge difference between a self-deprecating person and a person who admits, humbly, that he is part of a group that has done and continues to do injustices around the world, and that has long held the plurality of world power. I would also point out that Jesus' "pull the plank out of your own eye" instruction works not only on an individual but also the group level. So I would rather ask how I and my demographic group has to change, as opposed to many white Christian conservatives who seem to think that all the world's problems are caused by others-- Mexicans, secularists, liberals, Arabs, blacks-- or whoever.

2) You said you don't "fit my stereotype", yet the language you use seems to indicate that you believe that the "path to healing" is an even two-way street. But while I acknowledge that there are many problems and areas of irresponsibility among the Black community, I would also argue that the bulk of the change needs to come from us whites, given that we are both the historical oppressors and the current holders of power. In a traditional oppressor-oppressed relationship-- which to a great extent this is-- the first and greatest impetus must come from the oppressor.

3) An ability to "speak the truth in love" is important, but nevertheless my moral authority has A LOT to do with who I am and where I come from. As a white male who has had many priveleges growing up, I realize that I know little of the suffering and lack of opportunity many in this world (and this country) feel, and that I have far more authority to challenge those within my demographic group than those outside it.